Many people say, Wicca and Christianity are like plaids and stripes, they have nothing in common. Never say never, because actually, these two religions have a few things in common. Though I would like to point out that some consider themselves to be a "ChristianWiccan", I do not believe in this. I don't think that you can be two religions at once, because these two religions also have a lot of different aspects to them. Here is a little compare and contrast for you all to observe.

Christianity
Monotheism

Christianity is a monotheistic, meaning there is only one surpreme God. A Christian is supposed to worship none other than God.

Wicca
Duotheism/Polytheism

Depending on the persons' beliefs, Wicca is duotheistic or polytheistic. This means that there are more than one deity. For most Wiccan, there are two-the God and the Goddess. For others, there are entire pantheons of Gods(like the greek gods and goddesses), each with different characteristics.

Christianity
Heaven

Heaven is the eventual destination of the soul of a 'good' Christian.

Wicca
Summerland

Summerland is the place the Wiccan's soul goes to rest before being reincarnated.

Christianity
No Reincarnation

After death, the soul remains in Heaven or Hell eternally.

Wicca
Reincarnation

After death, the soul is reincarnated into a new physical being(the cycle just keeps going and going).

Christianity
Satan

In Christianity, there is a supreme evil known as the Devil or Satan who is considered the ruler of hell.

Wicca
No Satan

The God and Goddess represent both dark and light, the balance. There is no surpreme evil in Wicca.

Christianity
Hell

The 'bad' people are sent to eternal damnation in hell.

Wicca
Karma

In Wicca, there is no Hell. The three-fold law or karma returns all negativity that a bad person sends out back to that person. This is how a person 'pays' for their evil deeds. Rather than burn in hell for eternity, they recieve just punishment from the Gods.

Christianity
Prayer

A Christian requests guidence or help through God/Christ in prayer.

Wicca
Ritual

Wiccans pray too. But rituals or spells can be considered the equivalent of Christian prayer. A Wicca asks their God/dess to provide the protection, help, or guidence they need through their magickal working, if not through simple prayer.

Christianity
Bible

Scriptures that tell of the life of Christ and guidelines of Christian living. Told through the eyes of Christian prophets.

Wicca
No Equivalent

There is no final written word in Wicca.Some may think of the ReDe as the equivalent of the Bible, which is a matter of opinion.

Christianity
Ten Commandments

Have no other gods, make no 'graven; images of anything, don't take the Lord's name in vain, pray and rest on the Sabbath day, honor your father and mother, do not kill, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not 'bear false witness' against your neighbor, don't covet anything thats not yours.

Wicca
Wiccan ReDe

One very simple rule, "An it harm none, do as ye will."

Christianity
Holidays & Sabbaths

Christian holy days, like Easter and Christmas, celebrate important days in the life as Jesus Christ(birth resurrection). Sabbath's are based on important events in the Bible and in Christianity's history.

Wicca
Sabbats

There are eight Sabbaths which are celebrated by Wiccans. They have little difference than the main Christian holidays because the Christian holidays have their origins in pagan celebrations which existed before Christianity.Christmas originated from the pagan Yule celebration, and Easter comes from the pagan Sabbath of Eostar.

Christianity
Church/Temple

Sanctuary of the Christian worship or house of God.

Wicca
Circle/Covenstead

Some Wiccans may have temples, but most worship and practice rituals within a circle cast anywhere neccesary.Others may consider their covenstead(where their coven meets) a place of sanctuary.

For the Christianity being Monotheism, I happen to disagree, hehe :$

I think it's polytheism. You have God, and Jesus, more than one, lol :laugh:

Also you have all the saints, prophets, disciples, ect.

Originally posted by Paige
For the Christianity being Monotheism, I happen to disagree, hehe :$

I think it's polytheism. You have God, and Jesus, more than one, lol :laugh:

Also you have all the saints, prophets, disciples, ect.

Actually, with Chrisitianity, the concept of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit is the triumverate and three parts comprising the whole. Jesus is the son of God, the Holy Spirit is the spirit of God. The two are parts of God that He uses to reach His people.

As for the saints and prophets, Christians don't worship them, they just honor them. It would be a sin if they worshipped the saints and prophets cuz they're supposed to worship only God and no one else.

And I actually don't consider myself of any religion, but it's like a reflex to explain this cuz I grew up Catholic...I can't get it out of my system! :eyes1:

And you may have been joking, but oh well...like I said, it's a reflex.

Naw, i just see it as polytheism :s kinda like how some wiccans believe god is in everything or something like. I kinda see it that way. That's just me though, I'm weird, I get used to weird looks that people give me ;)

Well actually magic is EVIL EVIL EVIL it's the work of the DEVIL and you guys shouldn't be messing around with that crap just because you see it on t.v. doesn't mean it's good and that you should practice it.:shout: The actors on Charmed really doesn't have those powers you know that don't you:dis: I will pray for you all!!!

Dear Ignorant #1 Phoebe,

Please, come back again as soon as you're done reading about wicca and paganism....I am most certainly not evil.....How can it be the work of the Devil if most Pagans/Wiccans (note, I said most) don't believe in hell or the devil...

Nice to see you're a catholic. www.mysticwicks.com is a great site to research on :) as is www.google.com, and search engines, and www.wicca.com.

If you wish to believe Magic is evil...well, then more power to you :) Me, I honestly don't care that you think that, as I know it's not.

Btw...I'll be praying for your pope (Don't look so surprised!!! Pagans/wiccans pray too ;) In their spells, rituals and meditation and such :$)

Love,
Heidi

PS) Did I mention I was gonna pray for your pope?! :D

Not that I agree with #1 Phoebe, but I do have something to say about your response Paige, and feel free to pray for the pope. He needs it. But anyway, I digress...

#1 Phoebe isn't necessarily Catholic. And don't think I'm defending Catholics cuz I'm not. She never mentioned her faith. She is most likely Christian, but not necessarily. Just wanted to warn you not to generalize. Actually to warn everybody not to generalize because #1 Phoebe did it too.

But I do agree. Magic isn't evil unless you use it that way. It's kinda like something I heard once...don't recall where. True magic is neither light or dark. It's where you take it that makes it that way.

I personally have never used it. I don't really have the patience to study Wicca (or anything for that matter) right now. I may check it out some day, but not in the near future. So I leave you now. Discuss away. :)

I just recently started to study Wicca, so I haven't had many experiences.
But I do have a tip for people who can't sleep or have nightmares.
Put an amethys under your pillow.
It really helps!

and in response to
#1 Phoebe

I agree with Rose (Paige... I'm so sorry) I meen Paige, come back when you've read more about wicca and pagans.

P.S I'm so NOT evil... And SO tired of hearing it.

I_am_differnt : I'm not Rose :$ Just heidi :$
T & #1 Phoebe : Soz :$ I've just been having a bad week :$ (personal reasons with meds :dis: ). Also, I just assumed you were catholic, because my experiance with catholics isn't that great :$:$:$:$:$:$:$ Usually I hear *most* (generalising here ;) I may be wrong.....actually, i'm willing to bet big bucks i am :$), Catholic people say they'll pray for you and all...so I just made that general assumtion :$ My bad :$ **hides**

ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am so sorry!
I always mix the names up.
I knew it was you though.
*hides her face in shame
I'M SO SORRYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
*hugs you a lot
*hugs you more
*gives you a bag of candy
I'M SOOOOOOOORRRRRRYYYYYY!
*hugs you again



Originally posted by Paige
I_am_differnt : I'm not Rose :$ Just heidi :$
T & #1 Phoebe : Soz :$ I've just been having a bad week :$ (personal reasons with meds :dis: ). Also, I just assumed you were catholic, because my experiance with catholics isn't that great :$:$:$:$:$:$:$ Usually I hear *most* (generalising here ;) I may be wrong.....actually, i'm willing to bet big bucks i am :$), Catholic people say they'll pray for you and all...so I just made that general assumtion :$ My bad :$ **hides**

Isn't that just adorable?

Anyway...
Well actually magic is EVIL EVIL EVIL it's the work of the DEVIL and you guys shouldn't be messing around with that crap just because you see it on t.v. doesn't mean it's good and that you should practice it.

I actually somewhat agree with this statement. Although "EVIL EVIL EVIL," would never be a term I'd use, because it makes the writer look stupid, I do think it's foolish to play around with magic, and especially if the reason you're doing it is because of some television show. These powers don't exist, yet some people think they do.

Originally posted by NF
I actually somewhat agree with this statement. Although "EVIL EVIL EVIL," would never be a term I'd use, because it makes the writer look stupid, I do think it's foolish to play around with magic, and especially if the reason you're doing it is because of some television show. These powers don't exist, yet some people think they do.
I agree that it's foolish to play around with magic, but the average person is not going to be able to get into the more powerful spells (and get them to work) right away. Curses and stuff such as that are a whole different level of magic (not to mention darker magic), and it's hard to find instructions are actually correct on how to do these. Plus, most people who are just starting won't understand how to make these sort of things work, so nothing is likely to happen and they're bound to end up disappointed with no real harm done.

I tend to think that if someone is doing doing witchcraft simply because of a TV show, assuming that they're going to get awesome powers, they're going to give up pretty quickly. They'll realize at some point that they're not going to be receiving any Charmed powers and quit. I can understand some people, though, who have started studying Wicca because of Charmed and got hooked to the real thing. There is some good that could come of it.

Beyond all else, it depends on the user as to whether witchcraft is good or evil. It's just like any other religion. I mean, regular ol' Christianity has been evil a few times in history in the hands of fanatics who would burn people alive for having different views than they did. It's that way with anything.

I don't think witchcraft is evil:blaugh: I think it's really cool, I'm not a Wiccan but I know all about it and I think that it's a lot more useful and realistic than most religions.

Free candy?????!(just kidding:D)

Would anyone over the age of 6 ever seriously entertain the idea that they could gain the powers displayed on Charmed? Come on now. Wicca doesn't seem to offer practitioners the possibility of levitation, telekinesis, freezing time, etc., but seems to be more of a spiritual practice.

But I agree that it seems if you are trying to use magic that you ought to be careful your intentions are not to cause harm, but to do good, & not to control others but to mind your own business.

Well actually I'm christian and I don't care how you say it " Magic isn't evil unless you use it that way" Eventually you will!! Example: Someone starts getting on you nerves and you can't take it no more what's the first thing you turn too!! MAGIC!!!! For revenge And what is the reason for believing in magic what actually is the point and please don't say that it's fun I heard that too much. I think all the magic and power you need is believing in the MOST HIGH ABOVE!!!( for all of you who don't know who I'm talking about it's GOD!!!:wink: )

Someone starts getting on you nerves and you can't take it no more what's the first thing you turn too!! MAGIC!!!! For revenge

Yeap...and then Karma comes to bite me in the ass 3 times as worse...that's a reason why it makes it not worth using "curses" ;)

I think all the magic and power you need is believing in the MOST HIGH ABOVE!!!( for all of you who don't know who I'm talking about it's GOD!!!)

I'm glad you feel that God is #1, however, some people do not believe in a God. Some people only believe there is something higher than all of us, or some people don't. Also, the Bible didn't say there were no other gods. It said that you should have no Gods before *God* ;)

And what is the reason for believing in magic what actually is the point and please don't say that it's fun I heard that too much.

You know...Jesus was a magickian :) He prayed for someone to heal, and it happened. Also....do you know even Christians do basic magick? Wiccans/Pagans (most....some don't ;)) do rituals (which are similar to Christian Prayers, only to different Gods/Goddesses) to ask for things, like something that is lost, or to protect a loved one, ect. Christians do the same thing. They pray to God asking for help, support and protection.

Also, before you start saying Magic is evil....think about why you say that/think that.
See, in the begining, there was Paganism. Then came Judisim, Islam, ect. Then, after Jesus died, there came Christianity, and the Catholic Church overpowered everyone else (you know....forcing taxes if you don't believe in God/Jesus/whatever), making it hard for others to live. So, most people converted. Which is why Christianity is soo popular. Only now, it's feeling a tad threatened as Wicca and Paganism are becomming popular amongst teens (and you won't believe how annoying it is for someone to just put on a pentacle necklace and say I'm a Witch, when they have no idea about anything about the religion! :dis: ).

Feel free to correct my "history" lesson anyone. I prolly got some of it wrong :$

#1 Phoebe, sometimes people turn away from Christ because they have had bad experiences with people who say they are Christians, and they are prevented from having good experiences with God. That is why some people do not, or do not yet, turn to the Most High Above. There are Christians who turn to any means possible to get revenge or hurt people who get on their nerves. Christians sometimes come across as rather judgemental and holier-than-thou or stuck up. I do not think that just because a person is a Christian, that they cannot commit evil. Christians believe that they are in a struggle in the spiritual realm, battling with powers and principalities, fallen angels and spirits.

I have hardly had any experience with magic, other than that as a child my friends and me once had a "seance", where we tried to conjure up the spirit of John Fitzgerald Kennedy, the late President. I guess for lack of a better thought, we asked that he rain money down on us. In fact, my memory is pretty bad on this, I think we might have decided to drop the idea because, we thought, what if he dropped only many coins on us, and what if that killed us.

Magic may have the possibility of evil in it, but so does anything, including Christianity, Jesus said so. He said some people would use his words for evil. Come to think of it, he said hypocrites think they are doing God a favor. Do you know what I mean? So good intentions don't always save an act from being evil.

Just wanted to add something.

Christians believe in forgiveness and that if you repent and seek forgiveness for your sins (evil acts) Jesus would forgive you and give you another chance to "enter his kingdom"...to put it in Christian-speak.

But if I'm grasping what Paige has been saying, Wiccans don't believe in forgiveness quite the same way that Christians do because 1) there's no Jesus or god in their faith to do the forgiving and 2) sins/evil acts result in bad karma. So instead of having a chance to ask for forgiveness the bad karma comes back and bites them in the ass, and if they're lucky they'll have some opportunity to redeem themselves and mend their ways. All Christians gotta do, according to their faith is repent and boom, they're back on good terms with Jesus.

Like Eowyn said, Christians do just as much evil as anyone. Does the phrase "King Richard and the Crusades" mean anything to you? Big giant holy war. And then I'm sure Richard went to confession and repented....maybe...

The really bad thing about that religion, is generalising, lmao! I do it myself :$ Some do, some don't. It's alot more loose than Christianity in, where if something doesn't feel right to you, then you shouldn't do it ;) :$

But if I'm grasping what Paige has been saying, Wiccans don't believe in forgiveness quite the same way that Christians do
I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that Christians stress more on Forgiveness. You have to ask for forgiveness, repent, ect. ect. ect. With Paganism, it's not that big of a deal. Similar to everyone makes mistakes, and you don't have to forgive right away, take as much time as you need to. I myself stress more on the understanding than the forgiving. Example : My mother emotionally abused me as a child. I honestly cannot bring myself to just say "I know you didn't know what you were doing at the time, I forgive you" or to even think that. I can honestly say and think "I understand why you did what you did. It doesn't make it right, I don't forgive you for it, but I at least can understand why you did what you did." :$ In my personal opinion, Forgiving means forgetting. Meaning "Oh, you emotionally abused me, but it's okey now! I forgive you!" and all, and just putting it behind you. I don't really like to do that. Usually, it takes alot for someone to go onto my "unforgiving" list.

You know...Jesus was a magickian He prayed for someone to heal, and it happened. Also....do you know even Christians do basic magick?

Dude. You just said Jesus was a magician. What kind of crack are you smoking? Christianity and Wicca are two completely different religions, so comparing made-up similarities might not help you prove whatever point it is you're trying to get across.

Originally posted by EowynHalliwell
I have hardly had any experience with magic, other than that as a child my friends and me once had a "seance", where we tried to conjure up the spirit of John Fitzgerald Kennedy, the late President. I guess for lack of a better thought, we asked that he rain money down on us. In fact, my memory is pretty bad on this, I think we might have decided to drop the idea because, we thought, what if he dropped only many coins on us, and what if that killed us.
Sorry, Eowyn, but that story had me dying laughing. First off, why the late President, who wasn't exactly known for being filthy rich? If I may ask, how old were you and your friends at the time? :laugh:

I've heard it said before that Jesus was a magician. Basically, I believe it boils down to that anyone who prays and does things that are generally viewed as miracles (i.e. healing) are also viewed as doing magical acts. It's not that unheard of for Jesus to be put in a different role other than the son of God in non-Christian religions. For example, Jesus is said to be a great prophet in Islam. Wiccans saying that he was a great magician isn't much different.

Thread got split, as it was off-topic. :$

Dude. You just said Jesus was a magician. What kind of crack are you smoking? Christianity and Wicca are two completely different religions, so comparing made-up similarities might not help you prove whatever point it is you're trying to get across.


Made up? :| Jesus did heal people man! Read the bible ;) And the fish and the bread, he made enough to feed everyone from just one boy's lunch. Christianity actually sprang out of Paganism, and wicca is a pagan religion. So, while they aren't completely different religions, they are still different :).

And how is the Bible made up? :reb: Got proof? Coz I'd like to see :)

Don't put words in my mouth, Paige.

The dictionary definition of "magician" is this:

"One skilled in magic; one who practices the black art; an enchanter; a necromancer; a sorcerer or sorceress; a conjurer."

Therefore, stating "You know... Jesus was a magician," like it was some kind of commonly known fact made me believe you pulled this "fact" out of your ass.

And how is the Bible made up? Got proof? [Because] I'd like to see

Perhaps your actually reading my post would lead you to the correct conclusion that I never claimed the Bible to be made up, only your speculation on what Jesus was.

nod :$ Just reread it now :$ my bad :$ Missed a couple of things :$ and soz for putting words in your mouth :)

"One skilled in magic; one who practices the black art; an enchanter; a necromancer; a sorcerer or sorceress; a conjurer."

Ahh, so I see....so therefore, the Charmed Ones are evil (if they were actual people, of course ;)), I'm evil and uhh...most of the Pagan people are evil...riiiiiiiiiightt!!

and i said Magickian ;)

mag·ick ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mjk)
n.
An action or effort undertaken because of a personal need to effect change, especially as associated with Wicca or Wiccan beliefs.

Which, unfortunatly, that word doesn't exsist in the dictionary :( But I ment that he performed magick.

I did not ever say that Jesus was a magician (now look who's putting words into who's mouth, lol ;)). I said, and I quote
You know...Jesus was a magickian
And no, I didn't pull that out of my ass. I pulled it from the discussion on it at CB located HERE (http://charmed-boards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1340), in one of the more mature forums :) And uh...if I wasn't such an idiot, I would've throughly read that thread before pointing that fact out :$ my bad :$

I didn't put any words in your mouth.

Ahh, so I see....so therefore, the Charmed Ones are evil (if they were actual people, of course ), I'm evil and uhh...most of the Pagan people are evil...riiiiiiiiiightt!!
Biblically speaking? Yeah, sorry. Charmed Ones= Witches= Evil, according to the ol' book. Fortunately for the Charmed Ones, the Charmedverse allows for witchcraft to be passed through their blood, eliminating any personal choice for the followed path.

You took out the K which changed the meaning entirely :$ And now, i've been informed that was a stupid thing to say as it would end up making an O/T discusson (my words, not the person's who informed me words ;)).

Why is it that you're evil if you aren't Christian, according to the Christian religion? :s was it because they needed alot of followers or something? :s

I refuse to take any further bait. Your points must lack some serious validity if you have to repeatedly resort to creating comments out of thin air to refute.

Originally posted by Paige
Why is it that you're evil if you aren't Christian, according to the Christian religion? :s was it because they needed alot of followers or something? :s
It's because of the nature of Christianity, which is in the teaching that there is only one way to get to Heaven. It means that everyone else is wrong in their beliefs and they're going straight to Hell.

Wicca, on the other hand, basically says that everyone is right as long as their comfortable in their beliefs, so therein lies the huge difference between Wicca and Christianity. There are others, of course, but the basic difference is in the way each teaches their followers to think.

this is a post of strictly personal oppinions and I'm not trying to offend anyone.

Before I started to study Wicca, Paganism and The Craft, I used to be christian.
I thought that was the only way to be, but I never felt at ease with what preists told me and what people tried to convince me was right.
I always felt that this God others were giving me, or rather forcing me to believe in, were cold and distant.
"He" wasn't at all what I had worshipped before I even went to church for the first time.
This God I believed in wasn't male or female (but I will use the word she right now)
But she was something much bigger than that, she was in everything.
She was the earth, the sun, the moon and the stars.
And most important of all, she loved me for who I was, and not for what people wanted me to become.

I've read lots about Wicca before...
But a few months ago I started to study for real.
I'm learning a lot, and I've never felt so free and alive in my whole life.
I see the love that is around me, and I feel like I've found what I thought I'd lost as a child.
The thing that made me the happy, loving and wonderful child my mum told me I was when I was young.

By saying that the things I believe in is evil, is like saying that I'm evil.
I've heard that many times, and I can understand that people are afraid of things they do not understand.

I just wish everybody could respect me and my beliefs the same way I respect Christians, Jews, Buhddists, Muslims...

Why is it that just because you don't understand it, it has got to
be evil?

Light, love and Blessed Be.

Originally posted by Ashley
Sorry, Eowyn, but that story had me dying laughing. First off, why the late President, who wasn't exactly known for being filthy rich? If I may ask, how old were you and your friends at the time? :laugh:

Ashley,

Heh heh heh -we were all of nine or ten, and I think JFK was big in the liberal Catholic hierarchy then. I don't think he was in the papers for naughty behavior yet, so he was quite a legend then & had a slightly saintly aura-those were the days.

_____________________________________

American Heritage Dictionary:

magick n. An action or effort undertaken because of a personal need to effect change, especially as associated with Wicca or Wiccan beliefs.

magic n. 1. The art that purports to control or forecast natural events, effects, or forces by invoking the supernatural. 2a. The practice of using charms, spells, or rituals to attempt to produce supernatural effects or control events in nature. b. The charms spells, and rituals so used. 3. The exercise of sleight of hand or conjuring for entertainment. 4. A mysterious quality of enchantment: "For me the names of those men breathed the magic of the past" (Max Beerbohm). adj 1. Of, relating to, or invoking the supernatural: "stubborn unlaid ghost/That breaks his magic chains at curfew time" (John Milton) 2. Possessing distinctive qualities that produce unaccountable or baffling effects. tr.v. -icked, -icking, ics To produce or make by or as if by magic. [Middle English magik, from Old French magique, from Greek magike, from feminine of magikos, of the Magi, magical, from magos, magician, magus. See MAGUS.]

magician n. 1. A sorcerer; a wizard. 2. One who performs magic for entertainment or diversion. 3. One whose formidable skill or art seems to be magical: a magician with words.

magus n. pl. magi 1. A member of the Zoroastrian priestly caste of the Medes and Persian. 2. Magus In the New Testament, one of the wise men from the East, traditionally held to be three, who traveled to Bethlehem to pay homage to the infant Jesus. 3. A sorcerer' a magician. [Form Middle English magi,
magi, from Latin magi, pl. of magus, sorcer, magus, from Greek magos, from Old Persian ... [et cetera!]

-------------------------------

Here's another tidbit, from my Roman Catholic young adulthood:
I once confessed to a priest that I had indulged in belief in Astrology and he said, well you know the Three Wise Men were astrologers. He seemed to think it wasn't a very serious sin, if it was a sin. I'm not saying that that is what the RC church teaches, just that it was his own opinion, & one of the more interesting things I ever heard from this particular fellow. I think at the time of Jesus' birth, astrology might have been considered a science. (FYI, if you're interested, even in my skeptical adult mind & heart I still believe this guy actually practiced celibacy, but strangely he was not a strong believer in miracles.)

I was going to say, I think the definition of magic and Magick are different & it also depends which dictionary you check. Sometimes the definition is: magic is anything we can't yet explain. I can't remember who said that.

There is also a difference between the "Old" and "New" testaments, which Christians believe, both books: some offenses were punishable by death, such as adultery, witchcraft and murder, but you could still marry as many women as you could get, but the New Testament prohibits multiple marriage.

Personally because I am wiccan I think that the person started this thread is a charlatan.

Personally I think the person who started this thread is a misinformed fool.

It just shows you what hundreds of years of christian propoganda has done.

I've had to many people telling me this lately.
"It's evil and a work of the devil!"

If you wanna think so, fine!
But there are some thing I think is better kept to yourself.
Such as the oppinions that somebody's evil, just because they happened to be of another religion.

(yup, I'm in a bad mood)

In my eyes, that's just not right.

But there are some thing I think is better kept to yourself.
Such as the [opinions] that somebody's evil, just because they happened to be of another religion.

It all depends on what religion you are part of as to what opinions you have. Those with opposing opinions to your own have every right to be voiced as your own do.

I'm not trying to say that all magic is evil, I just don't tend to look highly upon magic of any kind. Not only because it's seemingly stupid and pretty much useless, but just based on my beliefs in general.

Sorry, I just don't see how it can be right to call others "evil" and say that they're "preforming the art of the devil" or whatever.
And now we're talking about people who are nice and helping others!
To think that people who doesen't believe in the devil has sold their soul to him, is just plain crazy!

If only people could see further then their noses!
Do theese persons still believe the world is flat too?

(referring to the, oh-you're-evil-because-you're-wiccan-and-preform-magick-to-heal-and-help-others people)

I'm just asking... because to me it's as crazy to think that a person who helps others and heals others is evil just because he/she doesn't believe in the Christian God is as stupid as saying that if you're a real bullie you're cool and nice cause you believe in the Christian God. :tong:

(and if you don't go around stating that Wiccans are evil and Devil worshippers, don't be offended!)

((If my message didn't get across, sorry!))

(referring to the, oh-you're-evil-because-you're-wiccan-and-preform-magick-to-heal-and-help-others people)

You can perform acts of "magick" and heal people? Kick. Ass! I don't believe you.

I actually don't believe any psycho who claims to be so tapped into Mother Earth that they can use their special magickal powers to heal. If you can't prove it (which you can't), it's bullshit.

Originally posted by NF
You can perform acts of "magick" and heal people? Kick. Ass! I don't believe you.

I actually don't believe any psycho who claims to be so tapped into Mother Earth that they can use their special magickal powers to heal. If you can't prove it (which you can't), it's bullshit.

Okay...
*shrugs
See, that I CAN understand.
You're free to think it's bullshit.

:tong:

I don't mind

Both of you need to cool it down ;) Specially with the name calling :$ **hides from NF :$**

She’s right I believe the person who started this thread is an ignorant fool personally. And they should have read more about the religion then to criticize it and say it’s fake and evil. Allot of Christians really think they are the only right ones and everyone else is going to hell. Let me tell them something they are all full of bologna.

Originally posted by Ashley

Wicca, on the other hand, basically says that everyone is right as long as their comfortable in their beliefs, so therein lies the huge difference between Wicca and Christianity.

Christianity teaches that salvation is obtained through faith in and obedience to Jesus. One of the apostles said in what is called the New Testament: " I may do as I wish as long as it does not cause me to sin". I find that this is fairly similar to "An ye harm none, do what ye will", as Wicca uses for a guideline. There are lots of guidelines in Cristianity as to what constitutes sin, such as the Ten Commandments from Moses and the newer commandments to "love one another as Jesus loves you", "refrain from fornication and eating meat sacrificed to idols", do not to anything that will cause another to lose faith in God.

I think there is a difference between magic and Magick, I think -- Magick seems to be a new concept, though maybe based on pre-Christian ideas.

I just wanted to point out that #1 Phoebe did not start the thread, Paige split it off from another thread called "Using Magic". I am not sure that magic is EVIL EVIL EVIL, but for some people it may not be a good idea to use it, as several people including #1 Phoebe pointed out: you don't know what you might be getting into.

Originally posted by NF
Dude. You just said Jesus was a magician. What kind of crack are you smoking? Christianity and Wicca are two completely different religions, so comparing made-up similarities might not help you prove whatever point it is you're trying to get across.

NF, Christianity has ties with old religions...

Actually, many of the pagan symbols used in the old religions were adopted by Christians. Some of the beliefs were tied in as well. There is a good page that I am adding the link to below. I don't profess to be either Wiccan or Chrisitian, but it is important to understand where an argument is coming from before you can make it. This is merely a small sample of how Christianity IS related to Wicca and other religions.

http://www.museumoftalkingboards.com/tri.html

Also some interesting information on the use of the "Celtic" cross:

http://www.younique.us/Celtic/portcullis_celtic-cross_pentacle.htm

Sorry, MadMandy. I was talking beliefs, not friggin' symbols.

I guess that makes you right.:uhh:

Ok then...

Check out the table (http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/1614/Celtwicc/Wicca/Wicca07.htm) at this site and examine the similarities and differences in beliefs for yourself.

The table's about 1/2 way down the page if you want to skip all the reading.

I don't know the author but I think this is the best and quickest comparison of the two religions I have seen yet.

I have to admit I used to know a lot more about this stuff than I do now so don't quote me on any of the stuff I'm about to say ;) .

Firstly, I'd just like to say that the person who started this is a close-minded fool. Honestly. Wicca and Paganism has nothing to do with Satan and the worshipping of him. If somebody follows a religion that focusses on the devil and revering him as a god, then it "sure are hell" ain't one of those two, which are nature-based religions centered on Mother Nature and the gods and goddesses. It's revelling in how beautiful the world can be and journeying to find peace and become at one with nature. As the Wiccan rede details (which somebody mentioned before), An it harm none, do what ye will. Does that sound like Satanism to you? Oh yes, I'm completely evil... but I won't hurt anybody, including myself. Pish-posh, somebody might say. I wouldn't, mind, it just sprang into my head.

Actually, this is all I'm saying for now. I don't want to be misinformed if I try to go any deeper into this and KT looks like a fool enough of the time :wink:

there isnt much of a debate here, coz christianity and wicca really are two separate things. oh, wicca isnt pure evil, nor is it mostly evil. just like most cultures, wicca is a way of life that may be or may not be evil entirely. think: christians do commit sin, but that doesnt make them evil. wiccans commit mistakes( that may equal to sin) but are dubbed evil afterward...heck, im not wiccan, but ive heard a whole lot to know, enough to write this comment...besides, old catholic priests dubbed wicca as evil because they think it leads people away from God. they got one thing correct, though, wicca does lead people away from God( note the capitalization... i am referring to the christian God here..) but wicca in its entirety is not evil as most will say..:corky:

I don't know that the Catholic church has ever specifically paid much attention to Wicca. I went to Catholic schools for 13 1/2 years, and not one word was ever said about witchcraft in any form, or Satanism either for that matter. Neither pro nor con.

They were much more occupied with purifying intentions and practicing the sacraments.

Growing up in a very Christian household, I remember that the subject of witchcraft was often avoided.

Then I began to grow and interest.

And the year that Charmed came on, and I became and avid fan/obsessor, I got a big lecture from my parents, my sisters, my brother, my church, strangers from my neighborhood...basically ever strong christian that I know decided to tell me that my soul was damned because I was letting the 'forces of evil' into my life by welcoming witchcraft into my home each time Charmed came on.

So I looked it up. In my bible, actually. And it clearly states that all witchs and witchcraft is the work of the devil...

...So, I'm not wiccan, and I cannot say that I know anything about it. But, if true what you claim, that you are not 'worshipping' any satan, for the fact that you believe that he doesn't exist...it sounds...right.

And, of course, as christians, we're taught not to take the bible in any big literal terms. So, maybe it's not trying to state that witchs and witchcraft on itself is evil...but the prospect of believing against Him.

*shakes head

Okay, so I'm going off on crap I don't understand. Please don't quote or flame :D

And, #1 Phoebe, may I point out, that if what you truly believe, that witchcraft is EVIL EVIL EVIL, then what are you doing on a message board, supporting a character that portrays a witch as your 'name', that clearly says it's about witchs. It's about Charmed. Just curious.:reb:

Alright. As a Christian, I am ignorant to the Ways of Wicca, so would you mind sharing somethings with me?

Re: "It is putting Faith in yourself and the powers in the earth, air and water around you."

An oxygen molecule and two hydrogen molecules combine to create one water particle. Do it a whole bunch of times, and you've got yourself a massive amount of said particles, forming a puddle. Soon they'll start to override the small area they're in and begin to move outward, over the land, forming somewhat of a lake.. The human body is mostly water, and often needs to replinish the supply, in order to keep going. It's just water. The same break-down process has been done for both Earth and air.

Based on the now widely-known and equally-accepted scientific specifics of these things, I can't see why one would go about worshiping them as some sort of all-knowing and/or life-assisting force.

Could you [or anyone], by chance, enlighten me on this? Earth, wind, water? Real life isn't an episode of Captain Planet.

Throwing science into this probably won't work out. There are some radical Christians who don't believe in the Big Bang. Arguing science and faith often turns to mass confusion and name calling. :p Theoretically, the Big Bang has been proven. You could even say that the water thing you just talked about has been proven in theory. But there's still people who don't believe in science.

Ahh, but a big difference still exists there. We, as humans, can actually prove the specifics of the aforementioned elements. The Big Bang is merely a probably theory that cannot (and will never) be proven, recreated, or dissected the way that the basics of those elements can. It would seem to me that anyone who argues that water, earth, and air are really blessed gifts upon the planet could be easily refuted by being either shown the process first-hand, or asked for what reason lifeless planets (Like... all of them) are blessed with all of those precious gifts. Right?

I think that "It is putting Faith in yourself and the powers in the earth, air and water around you" is not such a ridiculus statement. Earth, air, and water are powerful in and of themselves, not necessary a THINKING being. All of these elements can kill a human, even a scientific one, by themselves. Together they are even more powerful: mudslides, hurricanes, tornadoes. I think that the faith part comes in the harmony that these elements can have on their own. And science does little for self-esteem.

I know that the fall back for any religious discussions is the prevalence of science today, the "let's explain it away with logic and reason." But what about things thinks that can't be explained? The things that just HAVE to be taken on some sort of faith. Luck, maybe? I don't know, could be.

But having faith in yourself and in things that have been around for eons might not be such a bad thing. Oh, and how many of us have actually ever seen what an oxygen molecule REALLY looks like? I took chemistry...I saw lots of things, but never a microscope THAT good.

MadMandy
:$

I apprciate your comment MadMandy It makes much since. My husband has read this and has said something that really made me think he said

To who mentioned Science and is a christian: If a Scentist was to prove that God exists, would there would be no need for faith.

Good point I thought.

I am perfectly Pipers Sister by the way so i understand what she was saying. And just so that it is known I agree with her

Originally posted by NF
You can perform acts of "magick" and heal people? Kick. Ass! I don't believe you.

I actually don't believe any psycho who claims to be so tapped into Mother Earth that they can use their special magickal powers to heal. If you can't prove it (which you can't), it's bullshit.


I jusr read this part of your comments earlier. You just said and i qoute : If you can't prove it it is bullshit.

Can you prove to me that there is a God? If you could there would be no room for Faith and that is how God exists. By FAITH. If you was to prove him real then we would know for a fact which way to live and believe and all of these religions would crumble.
Something to think about huh.

Perfectly Piper:

Christians did not steal Halloween or Christmas trees from Pagans. Halloween is not a Christian holiday, and if a Christian has a carved pumpkin on his/her porch or hands out candy to kids in costume on Halloween, it is not an expression of disbelief in the Christian God or of belief in earth spirits or Pagan beliefs. Roman Catholics have All Souls Day, which is celebrated on the same day as Halloween or the day after, and it may have been created by the church as a reaction to a Pagan Holiday, but All Souls Day is not a Pagan Holiday. Most Christian churches do not celebrated All Souls Day.

Christmas Trees were introduced to the British Royal family by Prince Albert, the husband of Queen Victoria. Christmas trees were a German custom. Prince Albert was German. Christmas trees, despite the name, are not considered Christian, they are just decorative. I have never heard of a Christian who believed erection of a Christmas tree in the house was a religious practice. Many Christians do not have Christmas trees because they were never a part of their heritage. Haitian Catholics do not have Christmas trees and give out gifts on Three Kings Day. Giving gifts is neither specifically Christian or Pagan, it's just a human practice.

Christians are not encouraged to be judge others, unless it is a very carefully considered judgement. You can always find a person who calls himself a Christian, but who is judgemental. You can always find a person who calls himself a Christian, and who either refrains from judgement or only judges others after careful consideration.
______________________________________________

"When a Christian I was taught that if you have faith in God and believe wholeheartedly in him and pray hard enough then God will answer your prayers. It may not be what you want to hear but he will answer them.

When a Wiccian I was taught the same thing through spells and rituals.You think about something so hard and believe that what you are doing is going to help you achieve your goals. It is putting Faith in yourself and the powers in the earth, air and water around you"

You think you will obtain what you want through spells and rituals? What if what you want is not good for you? Will the elemental spirits give you the answer you want to hear or do they have the same divine ability to know when what you ask is not right for you? The same divine ability as God? Is that what you believe? Are spells and rituals just the same as prayer? Why bother with spells and rituals when prayer is simpler? If you have faith in yourself, why do you then need to put faith in the elemental spirits?

All of this is very interesting. Christians ride in cars and airplanes, take medecines produced in laboratories, take fair advantage of many scientific discoveries, but you say:

"You should not have brought Science into it at all. Christians are suppose to believe that God made the earth and all of the elements. (remember I grew up christian and my parents still are) They are not suppose to look for the Science of it all. Just have FAITH that God put all of these elements here for us and will always leave them here."

Galileo was a Christian. He used classic scientific method to arrive at the truth of the way the Solar system is ordered. That's just one example of the way Christians are not forbidden to practice or believe scientific theory. "they are not supposed to look for the science of it all"? Where did you get that idea? Even Jesus encouraged people to look at facts.

" As a Christian, I am ignorant to the Ways of Wicca, so would you mind sharing somethings with me?"

When NF said that, I think he was speaking in theory, because I don't think NF has ever actually decided to be a Christian, don't think he studies the Bible, etc. Okay, I'd be surprised to here him say he really meant it.

I really wonder whether some people are not making up Wicca as they go along, rather than studying it for what it is.

/me surprises EowynHalliwell.

Yeah, I really meant it, EH.

Can I just remind you guys that if you have something else to add... well, the "EDIT!" button isn't just to correct spelling. ;) Also as you said earlier you are a Christian. You should not have brought Science into it at all. Christians are suppose to believe that God made the earth and all of the elements.

First of all, no matter what religion I am a part of, I can think whatever I wish to think. But what makes the fact that I am a Christian who believes in science most irrelevant, is that I believe God created the previously dissected molecules that created all of those wonderful elements that Wiccans worship. Basically, it seems to me that Christians worship the creator, whereas Wiccans worship the creations (and not whoever they think created them). That's basically it.

I've realized, however, that a Christian trying to decipher the logic behind Wicca, is like a Wiccan deciphering the logic behind Christianity. Basically colliding strong beliefs prevent a mutal agreement. I guess this is why people start wars over this shit.

I really wonder whether some people are not making up Wicca as they go along, rather than studying it for what it is.

Word. I've assumed this much for quite some time. I doubt that the preteens going about posting their strong detication to Mother Earth, share the same religious opinions of those who actually study the religions. The thing is, I can barely tell the difference between the two.

Originally posted by NF
* NF surprises EowynHalliwell.

Yeah, I really meant it, EH.

/me is surprised, indeed.

But I was pretty darn sure you're not a Wiccan, dude.

On the subject of Faith, Christians believe that it is a gift from God, and focus on Christ before Faith.

Originally posted by Simply Phoebe
If you was to prove him real then we would know for a fact which way to live and believe and all of these religions would crumble.

God is proved to a Christian to be real and other religions do crumble in the face of this fact. Christians do gain knowledge of which way to live, and have more and more guidance in this area. When a church or a person is in error over what constitutes Christianity, the error becomes clear to a person who understands that God is real.

I don't see too many Wiccans who are in love with their God/Goddess the way a lot of Christians are with theirs.

[The "edit" button should be used to put additional comments at the end of your posts, folks, so you don't have to double post within minutes of your original post.]

Originally posted by EowynHalliwell

"You should not have brought Science into it at all. Christians are suppose to believe that God made the earth and all of the elements. (remember I grew up christian and my parents still are) They are not suppose to look for the Science of it all. Just have FAITH that God put all of these elements here for us and will always leave them here."

Galileo was a Christian. He used classic scientific method to arrive at the truth of the way the Solar system is ordered. That's just one example of the way Christians are not forbidden to practice or believe scientific theory. "they are not supposed to look for the science of it all"? Where did you get that idea? Even Jesus encouraged people to look at facts.


I really wonder whether some people are not making up Wicca as they go along, rather than studying it for what it is.


Just wanted to point out here that Galileo was indeed a Christian...who was excommunicated from the Church because his theory challenged that of the Church that the EARTH was the center of the universe. So doesn't that mean he was FORBIDDEN to practice or believe scientific theory?

MadMandy

Sounds like Wicca is a lot like Eckankar.

I think he was just forbidden to teach the Copernican theory which holds that the Earth, Moon and planets revolve around the sun, rather than the Ptolemaic Theory, which puts Earth at the center of it all. The Church at that time decided he was guilty of heresy, since he went a head and wrote in support of Copernican theory. The Church simply supported the science of Aristotle and Ptolemy, rather than that of Copernicus and Galileo. Big mistake, in view of the facts. The "Church" was just a worldly establishment, not necessarily very representative of the Christian order.

I don't think there is any kind of ban on Science or the study of nature in the Bible, and certainly nothing like the ban on witchcraft. Galileo was not forbidden by Jesus Christ or true Christian teachings to practice science. He was merely persecuted by the hypocrites of his time for publishing support of one particular theory. I don't think most Christians would accuse Galileo today of any heresy. he was just telling the truth as he saw it, and anyone with a brain in their head can see he was right.

So do you see that the study of science is not forbidden by Christianity, but that there are always abuses of Christianity, such as the Inquisition who punished Galileo for telling the truth. And isn't it obvious that the Inquisition is an Ant-Christian institution?

Eckankar?

Originally posted by EowynHalliwell
The "Church" was just a worldly establishment, not necessarily very representative of the Christian order.

Huh? The Church was the Christian order at that time. It was the only acceptable form of religion in Europe during the Middle Ages. And, hindsight is always 20/20. The Catholic Church is still one of the largest religious orders in the world. They are a law unto themselves, actually: the Vatican has its own police force. Freaky, huh?

Truly, I don't argue with the idea the science is now accepted by Christians. I just wanted to make note that using Galileo as a good example for the compatibility of Christian faith and science was a very bad choice.

Also, as to the ban on "witchcraft", I have noted that several scholars dispute the translation of the King James version of the Bible in which they say that "witch" should actually have read "poisoner". This has been attributed to the idea that may of the village healers at that time were herbalists, considered to be heretics, and were also often women, which seemed to be problem for King James.

Quote:
Indeed, Exodus 22:18 is their little verse of ammunition and they just love to quote it and use it against you. However, little do they know that the word "witch" was substituted for the word "poisoner" in relation to those who would poison the royal family in medieval times.

Here are a few references for this:
http://www.christianwicca.com/not_a_witch.html

http://www.geocities.com/vatrovia/truth.html

MadMandy
:blaugh:

Originally posted by MadMandy
Huh? The Church was the Christian order at that time.

The Roman Church was just a church set up in the name of Christ. The true Christian Church would be made up not of all Catholics but of all persons found worthy by God of salvation. I am sure there have been many who were full-fledged members of the RC church who were not accepted by God, and many who are higher up in the Church who are not considered by God to be the greatest leaders. Many persons not in the RCC have been considered worthy by God. The Church considered itself to be the Christian Order at that time, but not all Christians had agreed at the time, and I can't see God supporting hypocrasy.

It was the only acceptable form of religion in Europe during the Middle Ages.

Acceptable to itself. I'm sure there were always dissenters and those who practiced Christianity in its pure form. Christianity is what Christ teaches, not just some human interpretation of that. What matters to a real Christian is what is acceptable to God.

I just wanted to make note that using Galileo as a good example for the compatibility of Christian faith and science was a very bad choice.

Sorry, I really admire Galileo for sticking to his guns. I don't see why using Galileo is a bad example for the compatibility of Christian faith and science was a bad choice. He believed in God, he stuck to his guns in the face of persecution by the hypocrites who said they loved God, but didn't. He was a rather good Christian and an outstanding scientist.

Also, as to the ban on "witchcraft", I have noted that several scholars dispute the translation of the King James version of the Bible in which they say that "witch" should actually have read "poisoner". This has been attributed to the idea that may of the village healers at that time were herbalists, considered to be heretics, and were also often women, which seemed to be problem for King James.

I've read a little about the controversy in the interpretation of 'the interpretation of dreams', though I don't know about the above. I can't comment on that, but I often hear condemnation of witchcraft in Christian communities, but not the same about science. Except that the bible advises against seeking after worldly wisdom or at least advises placing common sense and spiritual wisdom above knowledge of the world(Galileo did that, put worldly wisdom in the proper order). But I don't agree with witch hunts, anyway.



Quote:
Indeed, Exodus 22:18 is their little verse of ammunition and they just love to quote it and use it against you. However, little do they know that the word "witch" was substituted for the word "poisoner" in relation to those who would poison the royal family in medieval times.

Here are a few references for this:
http://www.christianwicca.com/not_a_witch.html

http://www.geocities.com/vatrovia/truth.html

MadMandy
:blaugh: [/QUOTE]

I've partly read, partly skimmed the links, and I'm sure there is a reason to suspect that 'poisoners' is what is really meant when speaking of 'witchcraft'. But I think the Christian idea is to avoid spirit worship, or communing with elemental spirits and to follow the lead of the Holy Spirit. I don't see where a Christian should ignore science, as someone mentioned in this thread not long ago.

It's kind of disturbing about the woman who is a Christian Wiccan who believes Christians are so evil. Why would she want to be a Christian if she doesn't know any good ones? I was raised Catholic and if I hadn't seen a few good Christians sprinkle among the hypocrites, I wouldn't feel so warm and fuzzy about Jesus now. I wouldn't be supporting Christianity here.

By Eowyn Halliwell
He was merely persecuted by the hypocrites of his time for publishing support of one particular theory. I don't think most Christians would accuse Galileo today of any heresy. he was just telling the truth as he saw it, and anyone with a brain in their head can see he was right.

Just like Wiccan's were and still are persecuted. I think what Perfectly Piper ment to say when she mentioned Science is that Science complicates things and they way we grew up was that put your faith in God and God only. We are not stupid enough not to think that Christians do not take medicines. I also belive that she did say that she was of no religion. She was just letting you know what she thought and did state that many times that, all she was saying was her OPINION.

As for me. I agree with my sister. She brought up alot of good points. I will let her know that there are people her that have replied to her message so she can come and see if I was in the right. I do tend to miss quote her sometimes.

Basically. Christians persecute anything that they do not understand, fear or can't be proved to them. But everyone is just supposed to believe what they say. take it as gospel and if we do not agree we are wrong and are evil for not believing thier way. My sister and I have grown up and still live in a small southern town with a opulation of about 3,500. We know everyone and everyone knows us. There are very few Wiccians here. Has anyone ever stopped to think that the bible might just be a nice book of stories? Like I said before. If we were to prove that God exsits' then we would no longer have any need for faith.

No not alot of religions crumble in the face of Chrianity. Wicca and pagans have been around longer than Christianity and it will continue to be here. We have our spells and rituals because that is the wasy we practice our religion. You pray, yes they are basically the same thing and no we don't always get the result we want. ALSO if a Wiccian is asking for or doing something bad with their religion, it isn't Wicca they are practicing. We do worship the things that are created but we also worship the creator and that is the Goddess.

I have a qestion for the cathlics. If you are the almoghty religion, then why do you idol worship. You do pray to the mother mary. You have other statues in your churches that you pray to. TO ME that is idol worship. You are suppose to pray only to God.

All this comes down to is that we have the constitutional right to worship ANYWAY we feel. But wiccians do not get that kind of peace and quite christians do because people look at it as evil. Just because you do not understand it does not make it evil. It just makes it different.

And yes Eowyn Halliwell I do no what the EDIT button is for. My computer was running slow and I could not get the EDIT page to load. Seeing as how I use my sisters computer then I supect that is why she did a second post also. If it was any of your business anyway

Originally posted by SimplyPhoebe
By Eowyn Halliwell
He was merely persecuted by the hypocrites of his time for publishing support of one particular theory. I don't think most Christians would accuse Galileo today of any heresy. he was just telling the truth as he saw it, and anyone with a brain in their head can see he was right.

Just like Wiccan's were and still are persecuted. I think what Perfectly Piper ment to say when she mentioned Science is that Science complicates things and they way we grew up was that put your faith in God and God only. We are not stupid enough not to think that Christians do not take medicines. I also belive that she did say that she was of no religion. She was just letting you know what she thought and did state that many times that, all she was saying was her OPINION.

Perfectly Piper: "Christians are suppose to believe that God made the earth and all of the elements. (remember I grew up christian and my parents still are) They are not suppose to look for the Science of it all."
That part of it certainly didn't look like an opinion. Why would she not want a Christian to bring up science? Why is that her opinion?

Christians persecute anything that they do not understand, fear or can't be proved to them. But everyone is just supposed to believe what they say. take it as gospel and if we do not agree we are wrong and are evil for not believing thier way.
Not all persons who call themselves Christians act that way. This is a very blanket statement, but maybe everyone in your town who claims to be Christian behaves this way. If that is so, I hope you are thinking of getting away from them. I've gone to radical lengths to get away from people like that.

Has anyone ever stopped to think that the bible might just be a nice book of stories? Like I said before. If we were to prove that God exsits' then we would no longer have any need for faith.

No not alot of religions crumble in the face of Chrianity. Wicca and pagans have been around longer than Christianity and it will continue to be here. We have our spells and rituals because that is the wasy we practice our religion. You pray, yes they are basically the same thing and no we don't always get the result we want. ALSO if a Wiccian is asking for or doing something bad with their religion, it isn't Wicca they are practicing. We do worship the things that are created but we also worship the creator and that is the Goddess.
I do think a lot of religions cannot compare with Christianity.
I don't think prayer is the same as spells and ritual. Christian prayer is communication with God, and it is a communication with Jesus Christ. Wiccan prayer is not connected to Jesus Christ, that I can see, so it's not quite the sme thing. And I don't think Wicca has been around as long as Christianity. Christianity has its roots in ancient Judaism. And I'm more concerned with what is the truth than just what has seemed to have been around the longest.

I have a qestion for the cathlics. If you are the almoghty religion, then why do you idol worship. You do pray to the mother mary. You have other statues in your churches that you pray to. TO ME that is idol worship. You are suppose to pray only to God.
Ask a practicing Roman Catholic, I wouldn't know. Why do Wiccans worship creations, as you say they do?

All this comes down to is that we have the constitutional right to worship ANYWAY we feel. But wiccians do not get that kind of peace and quite christians do because people look at it as evil. Just because you do not understand it does not make it evil. It just makes it different.
Real Christians suffer a great deal for their faith, everyday. My sympathies are with you if you are being persecuted for the sake of righteousness. I am not sure I understand who you are talking to when you say "just because you do not understand it."

And yes Eowyn Halliwell I do no what the EDIT button is for. My computer was running slow and I could not get the EDIT page to load. Seeing as how I use my sisters computer then I supect that is why she did a second post also. If it was any of your business anyway
Good for you, Simply Phoebe, I had no way of knowing that, wasn't sure you understood. Sorry I upset you.

I did not at any time persecute any Wiccans or call them evil. You are making that up as far as I can see.

Christians chose December 25 to celebrate Christmas because that was the date the Romans celebrated Saturnalia. They tended to be off celebrating their own holiday, were drunk and lenient during that time. Christianity was not an established religion and so was persecuted by the early Romans. They chose December 25 to avoid persecution, not because they envied a Pagan holiday.

It is quite true about the Christmas trees, that the English tradition of including decorated pine trees started with the German branch of the British Royal family. Pagans don't own all evergreens. How can you say that Christians stole that tradition when Christmas trees are not considered sacred to Christians and are not considered a Christian symbol? I did not ever say that Prince Albert claimed the "Christmas" tree was in any way Christian. A tree is a tree.
I do not know anything about this guy you said invited the tree thing but it isn't true. If he was claiming to be christian he wasn't.
You don't know anything about Prince Albert but you are guessing he claimed to be a Christian. He attended a Christian church with Queen Victoria and raised his children Christian. He seems to have been a very good father and husband, and how is it that you are judging someone you don't know anything about? He introduced the German tradition of having an evergreen tree as a decoration during the Christmas holidays. It is not really a Christian tradition. No Christian has ever claimed to have invented the tradition of having Christmas trees, or bunny rabbits or painted eggs.

Passover is an ancient Jewish tradition, and I don't see how a religion that began 5000 years ago in the middle East got its traditions from Celtic Paganism.
These decorations that you say began with Paganism are just common themes that are not associated with any religion. Rabbit hiding chocolate eggs or painted hen eggs are a modern convention not associated with any religion at all, not Wicca, not Christianity, not Judaism, Buddhism, Zoroatrianism or whatever.

Your link doesn't work for me, you might want to check it.

If you aren't willing to learn anything about the other religion that you are seeking answers for, I mean really learn as in take some time off of being a christian and really study, then you are not going to understand
You are being judgemental here. I am reading the links provided and have read others before to understand Wicca. Don't tell me I don't try to understand. You don't even seem to be very committed to it, you can't decide that the Wiccan tradition that there is a God and Goddess is true. I do think you are searching for answers, but if you are serious about Wicca, shouldn't you know as much as you can about it before you tell me I should put Jesus aside and study your religion and your version of a higher power?

Basically we could try to explain everything at once but you still would not understand it. You have to experience it for yourself. I do not understnad it all myself. Wicca takes years of learning and practice. I did not have the patience for it so I slacked off. I have begun reading some again since I got causght up in this discusion. So mayb ein a a few weeks i might have some other answers for you.

I am not convinced that you are very committed to your religion and you say one has to experience for onesself, but experience what?

Eowyn you mentioned in an earlier statement that you do not see alot of Wiccians in love with thier God like Christians are with thiers. Maybe you aren't looking hard enough. Wiccians do not flaunt thier religion as much because alot of them these days are Solitary Practioners. It is easier to live in Peace that way. I was for me when I was studying it.

I have no reason to look for a needle in a haystack. If Wicca is truly a great way of life, why are not Wiccans trying to share this with everyone? I think NF is right that Pagans worship what is created, rather than worshipping the creator. Why would I stop eating real food in my life, and start eating pictures of food? Pictures of food have real importance, in that when there is a picture of pasta on a package of pasta in a store, it makes it quicker to choose what I am buying. But I don't mistake a food label for the food itself.

I hope I am not being mean, but I want to know why you would say the following:

Eowyn try to understand that Wiccians and pagans are people too and that just because you do not understnad their religion is no reason to persecute them for it or call it evil. they are just practicing a religion just like you.
You are accusing me of saying something I did not say.

By the way, I do not practice a religion, I live my spirituality and try my best to practice the teachings of Christ. This would include the very wise decision to look before I leap, try to examine the consequences of making a major commitment before I decide to make that commitment. That is why I will not abandon all Christian studies and make a commitment to study just Wicca. Especially when I am pretty sure other practioners of Wicca do not see a need to put Christianity aside to practice Wicca, or to study it. Try the Christian Wicca link that MadMandy provided for the opinion of someone who claims to be a practicing Wiccan. But of course I have read a certain amount on the subject of Wicca, though you have strangely informed me that I refuse to understand or study it. I just refuse to swallow your opinion whole and that is my right, and I refuse to perform spells and incantations. I would not ask you to do what you ask of me. It sounds like you are asking me to do more than you yourself would do.

You say do your best and try to live right, but everyone says that. That is just common sense, not a Wiccan tradition.

If the Author of all Creation is available for advice on what is truly right, I would rather go to that Author. I do, as a matter of fact. I do this and I don't slack off. I do my best. I slacked off performing Roman Catholic rituals, because they are just that, rituals. I do not have to do go to confession for God to love me.(but I do try to confess to God when I am wrong) I don't have to say the Hail Mary for God to love me. Drinking from a goblet with a Pentagram on it would not make God love me more and it would not make me love God more or creation more. Saying a spell or incantation wouldn't benefit me, so why would I do it?

(By the way, PP, I understand about wanting to apologize for making a long post, but in this case it's a very important subject. I am sorry if I am being mean, but there are some things here that are very important to me. I do not like casually being accused of persecuting anyone, and I don't think I have called anyone but hypocrites evil. I am not throwing stones or calling names, or trying to stop you from some form of worship. I just do not like being told that my spirituality is based on Paganism. It is not.)

I'm starting to wonder if Wiccans/Pagans (at least on this board) can have their faith questioned without interperting it as condemnation and/or persecution. I asked for an explanation on why W/Ps worshiped the elements that are just there, since I haven't studied it, and don't know. Instead of an answer, I was told that since I don't study it, I wouldn't understand.

Well, not to toot my own horn or anything, but I count myself as a pretty sound-minded guy, able to comprehend a lot of things without extended, hard book study. If any of you are able to give an answer for the aforementioned question, by all means do so. However, if you can't, don't jump to conclusions, put words in my (or anyone else's) mouth, or turn it into an accusation of something that it is not. Simply say that you can't explain it, or don't bother posting. It's not doing anyone any good, and not furthering anyone's knowledge on the subject.

The discussion shifted from from the focus on elemental worship to the history of Science vs. Christianity. Does anyone actually have any kind of explanation on why there is actual worship for water, air, and dirt molecules?

t was not what you were saying that was giving me the feeling that you were persecuting some one. It was how you were saying them. All I was doing was giving you the infrmation that I found. If I put words in you mouth I am sorry. I just get defensive sometimes on things. I tried to be as polite as i could be to get you to understand what I was saying. I apologized for my sisters rudness adn still I was (in my opinion) yelled at.

I feel like you are making some pretty outrageous statements. You did put words in my mouth. I don't care for that. I suppose you are going to fall all over yourself apologizing. I feel very exasperated. And not very patient about all of this.

Here is the opinion of a friend of mine who is among other things a Christian preacher:

Incidentally, as a Christian I hold that Wicca and other forms of pagan religions as in the camp of not a good thing and is a dangerous path to follow (in my opinion). However, I do believe that as a Christian I am to love one another and accept their views as their own. [a coworker] is Wiccan and I work in the same office as him ... we have some pretty interesting conversations at times ... - just wanted to clarify that I'm not jumping on your position nor throwing my beliefs at you, but I do want to understand where you are coming from ...

This was in a thread called "Pagan Views" from another board. Notice he never said 'evil', as I never said 'evil'. He said dangerous. The thread was asking for people's opinions of the Pagan view. The Pagans kept insisting that Christians stole Halloween, and a whole lot of other things, from Pagans. The Pagan author of the thread kept insisting that Wicca is the same as Christianity. This was her opinion. Her opinion was that the philosophy is the same. I pointed out to her that Christians believe that they are part of Christ, have the Bible as their basic textbook, and Wiccans do not.

This was my take on Christianity:

Christian morals are centered around one great example, of a man who never once deviated from God's will, the only human who never committed a sin. Although he never created one ripple of bad Karma, he suffered the bad karma of many individuals to heal them and teach them how live as he did.

It's not about spells, symbols, rituals, incantations or anything but living the life we were destined by God to lead, and about surrendering to God's will. It's not about shunning people who practice non-Christian spirituality or religions. If it is about shunning anyone, it's about shunning people who claim to care about other people and about God, but who don't really. These people are dangerous. It is about finding God's will for us, so that we can be happy, though not always unpersecuted.

And by the way, though NF claims to be a Christian, I still think he is just 'yanking chain', or he'd have more to say on the subject, and less four letter words in his posts.

And here I was, thinking that your last post was... ya know, the last one.

If you're so very disassociated from both religions, what made you think you had any stance on the subject, "Christanity vs. Wicca," is beyond me, but I'm sure you had your reasons.

I read your posts and find nothing but one contradiction after another. How can you say you posted what you belive in, yet you "believe only in [your]self"? It doesn't make a damn bit of sense, dear.

I see my question still remains unanswered. Bummer.

Perfectly Piper, you complained earlier when NF replied to one of the points in your post that he was only replying to one part of your post. I tried to address as many of your concerns as I could, and then you say I'm dissecting your post.

The reason I introduced the statement by my Christian friend is because he is very kind and had certainly never said anything that could be interpreted by you as persecution, either of you or of Wicca. I did not introduce him to show authority, but to show kindness and true caring.

It's not about spells, symbols, rituals, incantations or anything but living the life we were destined by God to lead, and about surrendering to God's will.
To you is is not about spells and rituals, incantations or anything but living the life YOU were destined to by YOUR God. Some people just do not believe the same way. You believe in your God and that is a wonderful thing.

I am not just giving my own opinion here, you are reducing it to that.

You know what I am tired of apologizing for my beliefs Or rather what I DO NOT believe in. If You are going to accuse me something maybe you might want to read every thing I said. I said I do not believe in Christianity or Wicca. I am of no religion.

You are jumping around saying so many things that I'd have to make it a full time job to keep track of it. You do keep contradicting yourself, as far as I can see.

And nobody here asked you to apologize for whatever it is you do and don't believe in. Least of all me.

Seriously, if you're just going to keep repeating that shit, it'll get spammy. If you actually have something to contribute to the conversation, please do so; I'd be interested to read it. I'd be more interested, however, if you knew something about or were a part of what you were talking about (i.e. Christianity or Wicca and the differences therein).

Originally posted by #1 Phoebe
Well actually magic is EVIL EVIL EVIL it's the work of the DEVIL and you guys shouldn't be messing around with that crap just because you see it on t.v. doesn't mean it's good and that you should practice it.:shout: The actors on Charmed really doesn't have those powers you know that don't you:dis: I will pray for you all!!!


Actually magic was happening centuries before chramed was ever thought about. Just because most people who watch charmed are wiccans doesnt mean to say that charmed made they a want to be a witch.

who says that magic is crap and evil, it is both because of nature and because nature is both good and evil.

id like to add something after reading all of this;

wiccans are actually very forgiving.
not all wiccans are evil (i myself am not.)
pretty much all religions grew from paganism so really we are all christian, catholic, wiccan, pagan and all the other relgions in the world , we are all the same. why cant people accept that? someone tell me. we may all prey (in all forms) to different gods but that is because maybe we dont like the practises of other religions and faiths so we choose one that we do agree with and would willingly follow for our life.

i myself dont really agree with cristianity because i have not had good encounters shall we say with your god. thats the reason why i dont belive on god and follow the wiccan religion.

if anyone is curious why i dont follow christianity then checkout my profile and send me an email maybe i can explain more indepth why most of us choose to do what we do.

Not sure how badly I want to get into this again, but I don't see how Christianity came from Paganism. Christianity to some extent has been influenced by some other religions, but mainly it came about with a particular man who is held to be god by his followers.

Have you ever seen My Big Fat Greek Wedding? You know when the dad tries to take every English and make up a way that it originated from a Greek word?

Yeah, it's like that, with candles.

Hmm, Wicca reminds me of Pagan, a religion...and Christian is Christian. I have a friend that's pagan, and they have couvans, stuff and amulets...but they believe that their god is the devil - oh, well, it's just her religion...

Then she is not a real pagan. She must be a part of something different.
Paganism and Wicca are related, both use nature as power, and neither of them worship the devil or anybody who practices are not Satanists.

Then again, I hope I'm reading your post right. You said, Raynor, that they believe that their God is the devil. So you mean that they look up to the devil (Satanists) or did you make a little error and you meant to say that they believe God (as Christians believe--not sure about this though) is the devil?

Hope that makes sense.

Never saw.

It would be interesting to study whatever it is that makes people think Christianity began with another religion. Christians claim Jesus is part of the God who made the entire universe including Pagans, so it'd be a bit difficult to prove that Christianity came from Paganism rather than Paganism coming from the need for religion, without knowledge of the need for redemption, or expectation of the coming of a Savior.

Speaking of language:

They took many things even "Hel" from paganism(Hel is the goddess of the dead in Heathenism)

the above is from a thread at the other board that I think I mentioned, claiming that the Christians stole the idea of Hell, but I think that JC referred to Gehenna(a pit of ever-burning garbage that existed outside a town)as the form of existence in which the unrepentant will burn for eternity, and persons afterward called that Hell. The burning isn't the same as fire, it'd be like burning with resentment, anger, shame, etc.

[Edit: I started typing this post right after NF's so didn't see Aradia's or Raynor's--but so tired I can't reply yet! G'night :bye:]

I took some days away from this conversation to see if anything interesting was spoken...but apparently not. After the tidbit about Galileo, things took a really bad turn. NF questions why the Wiccans feel attacked; it seems that way. Several posters have labeled the Wiccans as "evil". Their morals and beliefs have been questioned, yet, when a Christian is questioned in the same way, a certain "righteous" anger can be felt in their reply.

I have interest in the idea of religion, period. Faith is an important concept in our society. Humans take a great deal on faith in our day to day lives.

However, the conversation here has degenerated into more flaming than anything else. Examples, facts, and general common sense have fled. Everyone here obviously has some access to the Internet. Check out these topics; make sensible statements.

The title of this entire thread is labeled with "vs". Maybe some of the posters actually see this as a "battle of religion". I think the whole purpose should be to gain understanding.

:$
MadMandy

i totally agree with madmandy. i know that i have thrown my spanner in the works a few times but not with the intension this happening, this has turned from a lighthearted disscusion into full blown argument :argue:

everytime i have put a post up it was to defend other wiccans like me and everytime people turn it into something bad and have a go at us. if a christian has a go at a wiccan it is viewed as a good thing. if a wiccan has a go at a christian we are viewed as evil and bad people and we are verbally tared and feathered. its not right :dis:

i am all for people right to express themselves and to talk about their religion but i dont belive in badmouthing other peoples religion and beliefs. this started out as a way to discuse the differences between christianity and wicca/witchcraft and i turned into the salem witch trials. people have taken this too seriously and really need to ease up a bit and not take these talks too serious!

what happened?
joeysluvslave

Well, in this case, what happened was what has already happened several times before: Things were blown out of porportion, somehow making Wiccans/Pagans the martyrs and the Christinas, the self-righteous flame-throwers. Whatever.

Intent of my question: Gain knowledge.
Question: Still unanswered.

Originally posted by NF
Well, in this case, what happened was what has already happened several times before: Things were blown out of porportion, somehow making Wiccans/Pagans the martyrs and the Christinas, the self-righteous flame-throwers. Whatever.

.

my thoughts exactly. at least im not the only one who thinks this. you just put it a better way than i could. thank you

What I was trying to convey was that the aforementioned efforts to cast a better light on Wiccans by way of saying Christians are being mean, were inaccurate and over-used.

what im trying to say is that people keep turning things around and making them into what its not meant to be.
wiccans beliefs are being blown out of proportion and so are christians.

#1 Phoebe, who has been scolded by quite a few members, and probably rightly so, I myself said her methods were quite heavyhanded, is about the only person I've heard here persecuting Wicca. She has got her comeuppance, and lots of people who read this this thread months later, have continued to make comments to the effect that they think she's wrong.

Zuzu:I've had to many people telling me this lately.
"It's evil and a work of the devil!"

If you wanna think so, fine!
But there are some thing I think is better kept to yourself.
Such as the oppinions that somebody's evil, just because they happened to be of another religion.

Sorry, I just don't see how it can be right to call others "evil" and say that they're "preforming the art of the devil" or whatever.
And now we're talking about people who are nice and helping others!
To think that people who doesen't believe in the devil has sold their soul to him, is just plain crazy!

If only people could see further then their noses!
Do theese persons still believe the world is flat too?

(referring to the, oh-you're-evil-because-you're-wiccan-and-preform-magick-to-heal-and-help-others people)

I'm just asking... because to me it's as crazy to think that a person who helps others and heals others is evil just because he/she doesn't believe in the Christian God is as stupid as saying that if you're a real bullie you're cool and nice cause you believe in the Christian God.

Sorry, Zuzu, but I feel like you are just generalizing and carrying on a stereotype about Christians. This is the problem I have with accusations about persecution. For most people it just seems to be their imagination. If you've really been persecuted, it seems you can say so here, as Salustiana did:

Salustiana: And the year that Charmed came on, and I became and avid fan/obsessor, I got a big lecture from my parents, my sisters, my brother, my church, strangers from my neighborhood...basically ever strong christian that I know decided to tell me that my soul was damned because I was letting the 'forces of evil' into my life by welcoming witchcraft into my home each time Charmed came on.

Now that's persecution. How could those 'Christian' people say someone is damned because they watch a tv show? Certainly there is no way someone is saved from damnation just from watching a Christian tv show. I don't believe that and no person who is truly obedient to Jesus would say that, or thay would kindly say that practicing witchcraft can be dangerous because when you deal with unseen spirits you don't always know what you are dealing with. There are some people who claim to be Christians for bad reasons: they want attention, they are bossy, they want to steal from others by becoming church leaders and dipping into the till, they hurt little children, they find all kinds of ways to be jerks. I would definitely say to stay away from these so-called "Christian" people, they are the worst sorts of folks.

Talula: Like Eowyn said, Christians do just as much evil as anyone. Does the phrase "King Richard and the Crusades" mean anything to you? Big giant holy war. And then I'm sure Richard went to confession and repented....maybe...

I'm the first to admit there is much evil done in the name of Christianity, but not every Christian deserves to be lumped with the bad ones. Some Christians do what they are supposed to do.

If anyone feels they have been persecuted by NF, then it's time for everyone to realized that NF is the same way with everyone, not just Wiccans, if he sees something he thinks is wrong, he says so, and not always with sugar on it. Believe me. He's not a Christian, either(I'm pretty darn sure, correct me if you will, oh Blue-digited One), so don't claim you've been persecuted by a Christian if it's only NF. I appreciate NF because he has a tendency to cut through a lot of baloney. I think he gets a little strong sometimes, but no one's perfect. He never did get an answer to his question except from me, but no Wiccan has stood up to say what they believe.

As for me, I do like Jesus, and I do not think I'm being self righteous. Perfectly Piper has been perfectly self-righteous, has made all sorts of accusations that are not true, about Christianity. She has not really given any information to support what she says. MadMandy gives links, which make some sense.

But from Simply Phoebe I hear this:

Simply Phoebe: Christians persecute anything that they do not understand, fear or can't be proved to them. But everyone is just supposed to believe what they say. take it as gospel and if we do not agree we are wrong and are evil for not believing thier way.

I don't thump the bible or tell anyone they are going to hell. I'm not throwing scripture quotes at anyone. I am not condemning anyone for Wiccan practices, but I do get rather hot under the collar when someone says, 'you're persecuting me, in my opinion, I just feel that way.' What I have been doing is refuting some rather outrageous claims made by Perfectly Piper, who says Christians stole all kinds of things from Pagans, claims Christians don't believe in science. I've given some pretty good answers to those, but I'm told by her that I don't know what I'm talking about.

If there are some Christians who call Simply Phoebe evil, it's not me. I do think she's generalizing and stereotyping, and I never called her evil. There a some Christians who wouldn't speak this way.

MadMandy: I took some days away from this conversation to see if anything interesting was spoken...but apparently not. After the tidbit about Galileo, things took a really bad turn. NF questions why the Wiccans feel attacked; it seems that way. Several posters have labeled the Wiccans as "evil". Their morals and beliefs have been questioned, yet, when a Christian is questioned in the same way, a certain "righteous" anger can be felt in their reply.

I have interest in the idea of religion, period. Faith is an important concept in our society. Humans take a great deal on faith in our day to day lives.

However, the conversation here has degenerated into more flaming than anything else. Examples, facts, and general common sense have fled. Everyone here obviously has some access to the Internet. Check out these topics; make sensible statements.

The title of this entire thread is labeled with "vs". Maybe some of the posters actually see this as a "battle of religion". I think the whole purpose should be to gain understanding.

I kept up the conversation about Galileo, no one else was interested in continuing it. Here is a link to the GALILEO PROJECT (http://es.rice.edu/ES/humsoc/Galileo). Here is a link to an account of how Christmas trees became an English custom: PRINCE ALBERT, PRINCESS CHARLOTTE AND THE GERMAN TRADITION (www.hymnsandcarolsofchristmas.com/O%20Tannenbaum/09-The%20Victoria%20and%20Albert%20Tree.htm)

And I have only heard #1 Phoebe condemn Wiccans as evil. Maybe I have missed the other posters who attacked Wicca, other than I suppose NF, who has a point. He's not calling anyone evil, however, he just has a question about a Wiccan belief, and none of the Wiccans care to answer it. I have not condemned anyone's beliefs, just argued against lies. Those who believe this thread is for enlightenment may stop accusing others of attacking them if it didn't really happen. If it's just a general feeling you have, there must be some reason. Don't be so afraid to say it. Enlighten us. I also believe I made a comment to the effect that I think some people are claiming to be Wiccan, but have not studied their religion much. MadMandy and some others have represented themselves better than that. Please don't think that I think that's a Wiccan trait, you can find members of every religion who just tend to skim some books and then decide what they want to believe, rather than understanding what's written.

Joeysluveslave:i totally agree with madmandy. i know that i have thrown my spanner in the works a few times but not with the intension this happening, this has turned from a lighthearted disscusion into full blown argument

everytime i have put a post up it was to defend other wiccans like me and everytime people turn it into something bad and have a go at us. if a christian has a go at a wiccan it is viewed as a good thing. if a wiccan has a go at a christian we are viewed as evil and bad people and we are verbally tared and feathered. its not right
i myself dont really agree with cristianity because i have not had good encounters shall we say with your god. thats the reason why i dont belive on god and follow the wiccan religion
i am all for people right to express themselves and to talk about their religion but i dont belive in badmouthing other peoples religion and beliefs. this started out as a way to discuse the differences between christianity and wicca/witchcraft and i turned into the salem witch trials. people have taken this too seriously and really need to ease up a bit and not take these talks too serious!

I think you are exaggerating. This is not a witch trial. You are not going to be burned, reported to the Spanish Inquisition, NO ONE has tarred and feathered you, not in this thread.

i myself dont really agree with cristianity because i have not had good encounters shall we say with your god. thats the reason why i dont belive on god and follow the wiccan religion

Joey'sluvslave, You are saying you've had bad encounters with the Christian God. What does that mean? I've had bad encounters with the Christian God, too, but only in the sense that other people who claim to be Christians have misrepresented God to me. I do not any longer mistake other peoples' prejudices about God to be the truth. Jesus himself said that hypocrites would come, pretending to act in his name, but in reality they have no love for God.

joeysluvslave: if a wiccan has a go at a christian we are viewed as evil and bad people
Oh, come on. It seems to me that Christians are way outnumbered in this thread. I believe you said in an earlier post that Christianity came from Paganism. I replied that I don't see how that's so. There was your opportunity to enlighten me. I didn't say you were evil or a bad person. I did not jump on you. I just don't see how it's so. Christianity came from Jesus Christ, who was a Jew, not a Pagan. Some times the Jews adopted nonjewish traditions, such as circumcision. But it was because the Jews asked for it, not because God told them to. God told them they should not do this, but they insisted. Jesus Christ told the Jews it was not a divinely approved practice. It's not really a Christian practice, either, though some Christians practice it, only as a hygiene measure, as far as I can see. In fact, the original Christians said it was not a requirement for Christians, and discouraged the practice. Sometimes people who convert to Christianity bring some practices from their old religion, such as in Haiti. Voodoo is practiced by some who also attend Christian churches, usually Catholic. Christianity didn't steal these practices, and they are not approved of by the Catholic Church or any other church.

MadMandy, you posted a link to a the viewpoints of a Christian Wiccan. I did read it and I did come up with question, why does this person want to be a Christian if Christians are as bad as she says they are. I never got an answer. You don't have to answer if you don't want to. If you took this as persecution, I'm not sure why. I think it's a legitimate question. It concerns both Wicca and Christianity, and is not out of place in this thread. Do you think this is too controversial?

I'm sorry you are all feeling put upon, and if you want to continue the discussion about the differences and likenesses between Christianity and Wicca, that's fine with me. I would particularly like to hear from anyone who thinks I've persecuted anyone or told them they are an agent of Satan. I don't think so. I know I haven't. I keep hearing how Christians can say what they want, but Wiccans get jumped on. I would say that it's gone both ways here. If a certain 'righteous anger can be detected in [my] reply', perhaps it's because I don't care to be told I'm evil. I haven't joined a crusade, forbidden anyone to practice their religion. I haven't printed up anti-Wicca literature, or Kill the Pagans pamphlets. But if you claim I am persecuting you, prove it. This is America and one of our basic rights is that we are innocent till proven guilty.

NF: What I was trying to convey was that the aforementioned efforts to cast a better light on Wiccans by way of saying Christians are being mean, were inaccurate and over-used.

Did anyone understand this quote. Don't try to make Wicca look good just by saying Christians are mean to you, especially you who refused to say HOW you are being persecuted. Some of you it is hard to take seriously, other than Salustiana, who has stated her case well and named the particular Christians who did the persecuting. I have respect for that. I don't have too much respect for people wallowing in self-pity just because they suspect Christians of persecuting them. Sorry, that's not PC, but really, why waste your time if you can't support what you say.

eowynhalliwell i didnt say that christians were persicuting wiccans all i said was that all wiccans were being called evil because of the few evil wiccans out there. you yourself said that wasnt fair when all christians were getting called evil bacause of a select few who have used religion as an excuse to do evil things.

as for my earlier comment about bad experiences with the christian god. the deal is a was led to believe that if you did good things you would be rewarded by having a good life. well i di good things and yet i had so very upsetting things happen to me which made me change faiths. And unlike when some people have changed faiths they havent research what it involves i did as well as several other religions and in the end i chose wicca.

now for one of the other quotes that you used from zuzu(and this comment is not aimed at eowynhalliwell) when wiccans use magic to help and cure people its to help them and make them feel better. how could helping people be evil when most christians pride themselves on being helpful and kind to other people. you do know that some people make a living out of helping other people get better and have a better life. are they evil too?

joeysluvslave, you said "because of the few evil wiccans out there". I myself do not think that there is a such thing as an evil wiccan. Wiccans practice good magick and therefore, a "wiccan" who uses magick for evil, cannot be considered wiccan any more.

I used the comments from Zuzu to show what I thought was an unfair and not well thought out set of statements about Christians.

Joeysluvslave: everytime i have put a post up it was to defend other wiccans like me and everytime people turn it into something bad and have a go at us. if a christian has a go at a wiccan it is viewed as a good thing. if a wiccan has a go at a christian we are viewed as evil and bad people and we are verbally tared and feathered. its not right

It sounds like you are saying that everytime you defend a Wiccan, you think it gets turned into something bad, and others "have a go at you" if you defend Wiccans. "If a Christian has a go at a Wiccan it is viewes as a good thing." That's what you said, and I don't think it's true, not in this thread. Everybody seems to be speaking their mind pretty clearly and defending their own point of view pretty well. I don't think too many can be accused of persecution here. I think there are a few who have slung some nasty mud, but not many and they've all been pretty well refuted.

Here is another thing you said:
all i said was that all wiccans were being called evil because of the few evil wiccans out there

All Wiccans are being called evil by who? One crackpot who seems to have dropped out of the argument?[#1 Phoebe?] If you are beiing called evil, it's not by me.
now for one of the other quotes that you used from zuzu(and this comment is not aimed at eowynhalliwell) when wiccans use magic to help and cure people its to help them and make them feel better. how could helping people be evil when most christians pride themselves on being helpful and kind to other people. you do know that some people make a living out of helping other people get better and have a better life. are they evil too?

I have no idea why anyone thinks healing is evil, so can't answer the question. Let me tell you that if you feel persecuted by someone like Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell, you don't have much to worry about. These are people who are shallow, lukewarm "Christians", who fit the definition of Hypocrite very well. They seem to have no concern to have God's Kingship over them, which is exactly what the definition of God's Kingdom is to a Christian.

Whatever persecution or difficulty you felt if you were trying to get closer to the Christian God, it is not because God is evil or cruel or makes mistakes. I don't know what sort of difficulties you are talking about, but I think I can say the same thing has happened to me many times. Imagine if you decided to run for mayor in your town. Suddenly you will have opposition and troubles from all sorts of people who don't want you to be mayor. Organized crime doesn't want a mayor who isn't corrupt, other mayoral candidates start digging up dirt on you, and making up lies. Maybe members of your family don't want you to be mayor because it will take time you could be spending with them. Difficulties are to be expected whenever you try to do something good, and some people would say that to really be a Christian would be the ultimate good. So you can certainly expect a great deal of resistance, especially the more you wish to please God. This is not God making the difficulties. In my case there were people who were jealous of me and made my life very difficult when I wanted to be a Christian. I am still struggling through this, have not been baptized and do not belong to an organized church. This does not mean I will never be baptized or belong, just that I know I have many many many good reasons for taking a good long look at how and when to proceed.

By the way, it's an old saying but a true one: "No good deed goes unpunished".

Whether you are most Wiccans and Christians acknowledge that there are spiritual entities other than God or Goddess; Wiccans at least seem to acknowledge nature spirits, as do Christians. Christians acknowledge angels and demons, and Satan. Satan is the supreme evil, who is a very powerful immortal entity who is ultimately destructive. If you have tried to practice Christianity with any seriousness, you will have encountered evil spirits whether you realize it or not. Some are there to make you believe that when you do something good, you are doing the wrong thing, and vice versa. Some are there to confuse you, others are there to make you ill. There are many. You say you have had a bad encounter with God, but I have a feeling what was bad was either people or spiritual entities who wish to harm any Christians. There are lots of people who masquerade as Christians who get away with it, and fool a lot of people.

I wish once and for all not to be accused of badmouthing anyone else's religion, except for hypocrasy and Satanism. They both suck, and I think anyone has a right to say so.

If anyone has anymore complaints about being persecuted by a member, please either say who the member is and what they said that hurts so much, or report the post to a moderator with that information.

And one last point about doing what is good:
joeysluvslave: as for my earlier comment about bad experiences with the christian god. the deal is a was led to believe that if you did good things you would be rewarded by having a good life. well i di good things and yet i had so very upsetting things happen to me which made me change faiths. And unlike when some people have changed faiths they havent research what it involves i did as well as several other religions and in the end i chose wicca.

Jesus promised not an easy life, but inner peace if you follow obey him and follow his example. Anyone who promises the Christian life is an easy one is a big fat liar. If you do good, you will indeed be rewarded by God, but you will also be persecuted and bad things can happen to you as a result. Jesus did absolutely no wrong ever in his life, but as soon as he started his ministry, he was persecuted for no good reason, tortured and killed. Yet God did reward him with millions of followers and eternal life and kingship and eternal peace after his short time of hardship on earth. If you only expect worldly advantages for being a Christian, you are very likely to be rewarded. God gives some people riches so they can help others and health so they can help others. If you only want good things for yourself so you can have fun, God might not give them to you, or he may and then allow them to be taken away. If you are only in it for what you want, you are probably not going to stick with it very long. You have to ask God to make sure your motives are pure. You have to put into practice what God tells you to do, or you will not be rewarded.

Religion is not something you can argue about, you all seem to be on the defensive, chill, it is a persons choice as to what they believe. Some of you argue good points but some seem a bit confused, people should be open to other ideas. I'm not criticizing anyone, you all seem genuine, just some opinions are a bit OTT or old fashioned. Chill! :pounding:

eowynhalliwell i dint say that you were knocking peoples choice of religion i said that other people where namely the one #1 phoebe who has dropped out of this disscusion rather quickly when thigs heated up and nf who were having a go.

and with this comment i am not going back on things that i have already said but you have shed a new light on some of the things i have said and believed.

aradia i dont think i wrote what i meant as clearly as i thought i had. what i meant was there are people who have used magic for evil and because they used magic people brand them wiccan and the rest of us get a bad name for it. do you know what i mean?