View Full Version : Christianity vs. Wicca
Phoebe Halliwell
07-09-02, 17:09
Many people say, Wicca and Christianity are like plaids and stripes, they have nothing in common. Never say never, because actually, these two religions have a few things in common. Though I would like to point out that some consider themselves to be a "ChristianWiccan", I do not believe in this. I don't think that you can be two religions at once, because these two religions also have a lot of different aspects to them. Here is a little compare and contrast for you all to observe.
Christianity
Monotheism
Christianity is a monotheistic, meaning there is only one surpreme God. A Christian is supposed to worship none other than God.
Wicca
Duotheism/Polytheism
Depending on the persons' beliefs, Wicca is duotheistic or polytheistic. This means that there are more than one deity. For most Wiccan, there are two-the God and the Goddess. For others, there are entire pantheons of Gods(like the greek gods and goddesses), each with different characteristics.
Christianity
Heaven
Heaven is the eventual destination of the soul of a 'good' Christian.
Wicca
Summerland
Summerland is the place the Wiccan's soul goes to rest before being reincarnated.
Christianity
No Reincarnation
After death, the soul remains in Heaven or Hell eternally.
Wicca
Reincarnation
After death, the soul is reincarnated into a new physical being(the cycle just keeps going and going).
Christianity
Satan
In Christianity, there is a supreme evil known as the Devil or Satan who is considered the ruler of hell.
Wicca
No Satan
The God and Goddess represent both dark and light, the balance. There is no surpreme evil in Wicca.
Christianity
Hell
The 'bad' people are sent to eternal damnation in hell.
Wicca
Karma
In Wicca, there is no Hell. The three-fold law or karma returns all negativity that a bad person sends out back to that person. This is how a person 'pays' for their evil deeds. Rather than burn in hell for eternity, they recieve just punishment from the Gods.
Christianity
Prayer
A Christian requests guidence or help through God/Christ in prayer.
Wicca
Ritual
Wiccans pray too. But rituals or spells can be considered the equivalent of Christian prayer. A Wicca asks their God/dess to provide the protection, help, or guidence they need through their magickal working, if not through simple prayer.
Christianity
Bible
Scriptures that tell of the life of Christ and guidelines of Christian living. Told through the eyes of Christian prophets.
Wicca
No Equivalent
There is no final written word in Wicca.Some may think of the ReDe as the equivalent of the Bible, which is a matter of opinion.
Christianity
Ten Commandments
Have no other gods, make no 'graven; images of anything, don't take the Lord's name in vain, pray and rest on the Sabbath day, honor your father and mother, do not kill, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not 'bear false witness' against your neighbor, don't covet anything thats not yours.
Wicca
Wiccan ReDe
One very simple rule, "An it harm none, do as ye will."
Christianity
Holidays & Sabbaths
Christian holy days, like Easter and Christmas, celebrate important days in the life as Jesus Christ(birth resurrection). Sabbath's are based on important events in the Bible and in Christianity's history.
Wicca
Sabbats
There are eight Sabbaths which are celebrated by Wiccans. They have little difference than the main Christian holidays because the Christian holidays have their origins in pagan celebrations which existed before Christianity.Christmas originated from the pagan Yule celebration, and Easter comes from the pagan Sabbath of Eostar.
Christianity
Church/Temple
Sanctuary of the Christian worship or house of God.
Wicca
Circle/Covenstead
Some Wiccans may have temples, but most worship and practice rituals within a circle cast anywhere neccesary.Others may consider their covenstead(where their coven meets) a place of sanctuary.
For the Christianity being Monotheism, I happen to disagree, hehe :$
I think it's polytheism. You have God, and Jesus, more than one, lol :laugh:
Also you have all the saints, prophets, disciples, ect.
Originally posted by Paige
For the Christianity being Monotheism, I happen to disagree, hehe :$
I think it's polytheism. You have God, and Jesus, more than one, lol :laugh:
Also you have all the saints, prophets, disciples, ect.
Actually, with Chrisitianity, the concept of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit is the triumverate and three parts comprising the whole. Jesus is the son of God, the Holy Spirit is the spirit of God. The two are parts of God that He uses to reach His people.
As for the saints and prophets, Christians don't worship them, they just honor them. It would be a sin if they worshipped the saints and prophets cuz they're supposed to worship only God and no one else.
And I actually don't consider myself of any religion, but it's like a reflex to explain this cuz I grew up Catholic...I can't get it out of my system! :eyes1:
And you may have been joking, but oh well...like I said, it's a reflex.
Naw, i just see it as polytheism :s kinda like how some wiccans believe god is in everything or something like. I kinda see it that way. That's just me though, I'm weird, I get used to weird looks that people give me ;)
Well actually magic is EVIL EVIL EVIL it's the work of the DEVIL and you guys shouldn't be messing around with that crap just because you see it on t.v. doesn't mean it's good and that you should practice it.:shout: The actors on Charmed really doesn't have those powers you know that don't you:dis: I will pray for you all!!!
Dear Ignorant #1 Phoebe,
Please, come back again as soon as you're done reading about wicca and paganism....I am most certainly not evil.....How can it be the work of the Devil if most Pagans/Wiccans (note, I said most) don't believe in hell or the devil...
Nice to see you're a catholic. www.mysticwicks.com is a great site to research on :) as is www.google.com, and search engines, and www.wicca.com.
If you wish to believe Magic is evil...well, then more power to you :) Me, I honestly don't care that you think that, as I know it's not.
Btw...I'll be praying for your pope (Don't look so surprised!!! Pagans/wiccans pray too ;) In their spells, rituals and meditation and such :$)
Love,
Heidi
PS) Did I mention I was gonna pray for your pope?! :D
Not that I agree with #1 Phoebe, but I do have something to say about your response Paige, and feel free to pray for the pope. He needs it. But anyway, I digress...
#1 Phoebe isn't necessarily Catholic. And don't think I'm defending Catholics cuz I'm not. She never mentioned her faith. She is most likely Christian, but not necessarily. Just wanted to warn you not to generalize. Actually to warn everybody not to generalize because #1 Phoebe did it too.
But I do agree. Magic isn't evil unless you use it that way. It's kinda like something I heard once...don't recall where. True magic is neither light or dark. It's where you take it that makes it that way.
I personally have never used it. I don't really have the patience to study Wicca (or anything for that matter) right now. I may check it out some day, but not in the near future. So I leave you now. Discuss away. :)
Thunderstorm
19-11-02, 14:25
I just recently started to study Wicca, so I haven't had many experiences.
But I do have a tip for people who can't sleep or have nightmares.
Put an amethys under your pillow.
It really helps!
and in response to
#1 Phoebe
I agree with Rose (Paige... I'm so sorry) I meen Paige, come back when you've read more about wicca and pagans.
P.S I'm so NOT evil... And SO tired of hearing it.
I_am_differnt : I'm not Rose :$ Just heidi :$
T & #1 Phoebe : Soz :$ I've just been having a bad week :$ (personal reasons with meds :dis: ). Also, I just assumed you were catholic, because my experiance with catholics isn't that great :$:$:$:$:$:$:$ Usually I hear *most* (generalising here ;) I may be wrong.....actually, i'm willing to bet big bucks i am :$), Catholic people say they'll pray for you and all...so I just made that general assumtion :$ My bad :$ **hides**
Thunderstorm
20-11-02, 00:28
ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am so sorry!
I always mix the names up.
I knew it was you though.
*hides her face in shame
I'M SO SORRYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
*hugs you a lot
*hugs you more
*gives you a bag of candy
I'M SOOOOOOOORRRRRRYYYYYY!
*hugs you again
Originally posted by Paige
I_am_differnt : I'm not Rose :$ Just heidi :$
T & #1 Phoebe : Soz :$ I've just been having a bad week :$ (personal reasons with meds :dis: ). Also, I just assumed you were catholic, because my experiance with catholics isn't that great :$:$:$:$:$:$:$ Usually I hear *most* (generalising here ;) I may be wrong.....actually, i'm willing to bet big bucks i am :$), Catholic people say they'll pray for you and all...so I just made that general assumtion :$ My bad :$ **hides**
Isn't that just adorable?
Anyway...
Well actually magic is EVIL EVIL EVIL it's the work of the DEVIL and you guys shouldn't be messing around with that crap just because you see it on t.v. doesn't mean it's good and that you should practice it.
I actually somewhat agree with this statement. Although "EVIL EVIL EVIL," would never be a term I'd use, because it makes the writer look stupid, I do think it's foolish to play around with magic, and especially if the reason you're doing it is because of some television show. These powers don't exist, yet some people think they do.
Originally posted by NF
I actually somewhat agree with this statement. Although "EVIL EVIL EVIL," would never be a term I'd use, because it makes the writer look stupid, I do think it's foolish to play around with magic, and especially if the reason you're doing it is because of some television show. These powers don't exist, yet some people think they do.
I agree that it's foolish to play around with magic, but the average person is not going to be able to get into the more powerful spells (and get them to work) right away. Curses and stuff such as that are a whole different level of magic (not to mention darker magic), and it's hard to find instructions are actually correct on how to do these. Plus, most people who are just starting won't understand how to make these sort of things work, so nothing is likely to happen and they're bound to end up disappointed with no real harm done.
I tend to think that if someone is doing doing witchcraft simply because of a TV show, assuming that they're going to get awesome powers, they're going to give up pretty quickly. They'll realize at some point that they're not going to be receiving any Charmed powers and quit. I can understand some people, though, who have started studying Wicca because of Charmed and got hooked to the real thing. There is some good that could come of it.
Beyond all else, it depends on the user as to whether witchcraft is good or evil. It's just like any other religion. I mean, regular ol' Christianity has been evil a few times in history in the hands of fanatics who would burn people alive for having different views than they did. It's that way with anything.
I don't think witchcraft is evil:blaugh: I think it's really cool, I'm not a Wiccan but I know all about it and I think that it's a lot more useful and realistic than most religions.
EowynHalliwell
20-11-02, 14:17
Free candy?????!(just kidding:D)
Would anyone over the age of 6 ever seriously entertain the idea that they could gain the powers displayed on Charmed? Come on now. Wicca doesn't seem to offer practitioners the possibility of levitation, telekinesis, freezing time, etc., but seems to be more of a spiritual practice.
But I agree that it seems if you are trying to use magic that you ought to be careful your intentions are not to cause harm, but to do good, & not to control others but to mind your own business.
Well actually I'm christian and I don't care how you say it " Magic isn't evil unless you use it that way" Eventually you will!! Example: Someone starts getting on you nerves and you can't take it no more what's the first thing you turn too!! MAGIC!!!! For revenge And what is the reason for believing in magic what actually is the point and please don't say that it's fun I heard that too much. I think all the magic and power you need is believing in the MOST HIGH ABOVE!!!( for all of you who don't know who I'm talking about it's GOD!!!:wink: )
Someone starts getting on you nerves and you can't take it no more what's the first thing you turn too!! MAGIC!!!! For revenge
Yeap...and then Karma comes to bite me in the ass 3 times as worse...that's a reason why it makes it not worth using "curses" ;)
I think all the magic and power you need is believing in the MOST HIGH ABOVE!!!( for all of you who don't know who I'm talking about it's GOD!!!)
I'm glad you feel that God is #1, however, some people do not believe in a God. Some people only believe there is something higher than all of us, or some people don't. Also, the Bible didn't say there were no other gods. It said that you should have no Gods before *God* ;)
And what is the reason for believing in magic what actually is the point and please don't say that it's fun I heard that too much.
You know...Jesus was a magickian :) He prayed for someone to heal, and it happened. Also....do you know even Christians do basic magick? Wiccans/Pagans (most....some don't ;)) do rituals (which are similar to Christian Prayers, only to different Gods/Goddesses) to ask for things, like something that is lost, or to protect a loved one, ect. Christians do the same thing. They pray to God asking for help, support and protection.
Also, before you start saying Magic is evil....think about why you say that/think that.
See, in the begining, there was Paganism. Then came Judisim, Islam, ect. Then, after Jesus died, there came Christianity, and the Catholic Church overpowered everyone else (you know....forcing taxes if you don't believe in God/Jesus/whatever), making it hard for others to live. So, most people converted. Which is why Christianity is soo popular. Only now, it's feeling a tad threatened as Wicca and Paganism are becomming popular amongst teens (and you won't believe how annoying it is for someone to just put on a pentacle necklace and say I'm a Witch, when they have no idea about anything about the religion! :dis: ).
Feel free to correct my "history" lesson anyone. I prolly got some of it wrong :$
EowynHalliwell
20-11-02, 18:44
#1 Phoebe, sometimes people turn away from Christ because they have had bad experiences with people who say they are Christians, and they are prevented from having good experiences with God. That is why some people do not, or do not yet, turn to the Most High Above. There are Christians who turn to any means possible to get revenge or hurt people who get on their nerves. Christians sometimes come across as rather judgemental and holier-than-thou or stuck up. I do not think that just because a person is a Christian, that they cannot commit evil. Christians believe that they are in a struggle in the spiritual realm, battling with powers and principalities, fallen angels and spirits.
I have hardly had any experience with magic, other than that as a child my friends and me once had a "seance", where we tried to conjure up the spirit of John Fitzgerald Kennedy, the late President. I guess for lack of a better thought, we asked that he rain money down on us. In fact, my memory is pretty bad on this, I think we might have decided to drop the idea because, we thought, what if he dropped only many coins on us, and what if that killed us.
Magic may have the possibility of evil in it, but so does anything, including Christianity, Jesus said so. He said some people would use his words for evil. Come to think of it, he said hypocrites think they are doing God a favor. Do you know what I mean? So good intentions don't always save an act from being evil.
Just wanted to add something.
Christians believe in forgiveness and that if you repent and seek forgiveness for your sins (evil acts) Jesus would forgive you and give you another chance to "enter his kingdom"...to put it in Christian-speak.
But if I'm grasping what Paige has been saying, Wiccans don't believe in forgiveness quite the same way that Christians do because 1) there's no Jesus or god in their faith to do the forgiving and 2) sins/evil acts result in bad karma. So instead of having a chance to ask for forgiveness the bad karma comes back and bites them in the ass, and if they're lucky they'll have some opportunity to redeem themselves and mend their ways. All Christians gotta do, according to their faith is repent and boom, they're back on good terms with Jesus.
Like Eowyn said, Christians do just as much evil as anyone. Does the phrase "King Richard and the Crusades" mean anything to you? Big giant holy war. And then I'm sure Richard went to confession and repented....maybe...
The really bad thing about that religion, is generalising, lmao! I do it myself :$ Some do, some don't. It's alot more loose than Christianity in, where if something doesn't feel right to you, then you shouldn't do it ;) :$
But if I'm grasping what Paige has been saying, Wiccans don't believe in forgiveness quite the same way that Christians do
I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that Christians stress more on Forgiveness. You have to ask for forgiveness, repent, ect. ect. ect. With Paganism, it's not that big of a deal. Similar to everyone makes mistakes, and you don't have to forgive right away, take as much time as you need to. I myself stress more on the understanding than the forgiving. Example : My mother emotionally abused me as a child. I honestly cannot bring myself to just say "I know you didn't know what you were doing at the time, I forgive you" or to even think that. I can honestly say and think "I understand why you did what you did. It doesn't make it right, I don't forgive you for it, but I at least can understand why you did what you did." :$ In my personal opinion, Forgiving means forgetting. Meaning "Oh, you emotionally abused me, but it's okey now! I forgive you!" and all, and just putting it behind you. I don't really like to do that. Usually, it takes alot for someone to go onto my "unforgiving" list.
You know...Jesus was a magickian He prayed for someone to heal, and it happened. Also....do you know even Christians do basic magick?
Dude. You just said Jesus was a magician. What kind of crack are you smoking? Christianity and Wicca are two completely different religions, so comparing made-up similarities might not help you prove whatever point it is you're trying to get across.
Originally posted by EowynHalliwell
I have hardly had any experience with magic, other than that as a child my friends and me once had a "seance", where we tried to conjure up the spirit of John Fitzgerald Kennedy, the late President. I guess for lack of a better thought, we asked that he rain money down on us. In fact, my memory is pretty bad on this, I think we might have decided to drop the idea because, we thought, what if he dropped only many coins on us, and what if that killed us.
Sorry, Eowyn, but that story had me dying laughing. First off, why the late President, who wasn't exactly known for being filthy rich? If I may ask, how old were you and your friends at the time? :laugh:
I've heard it said before that Jesus was a magician. Basically, I believe it boils down to that anyone who prays and does things that are generally viewed as miracles (i.e. healing) are also viewed as doing magical acts. It's not that unheard of for Jesus to be put in a different role other than the son of God in non-Christian religions. For example, Jesus is said to be a great prophet in Islam. Wiccans saying that he was a great magician isn't much different.
Thread got split, as it was off-topic. :$
Dude. You just said Jesus was a magician. What kind of crack are you smoking? Christianity and Wicca are two completely different religions, so comparing made-up similarities might not help you prove whatever point it is you're trying to get across.
Made up? :| Jesus did heal people man! Read the bible ;) And the fish and the bread, he made enough to feed everyone from just one boy's lunch. Christianity actually sprang out of Paganism, and wicca is a pagan religion. So, while they aren't completely different religions, they are still different :).
And how is the Bible made up? :reb: Got proof? Coz I'd like to see :)
Don't put words in my mouth, Paige.
The dictionary definition of "magician" is this:
"One skilled in magic; one who practices the black art; an enchanter; a necromancer; a sorcerer or sorceress; a conjurer."
Therefore, stating "You know... Jesus was a magician," like it was some kind of commonly known fact made me believe you pulled this "fact" out of your ass.
And how is the Bible made up? Got proof? [Because] I'd like to see
Perhaps your actually reading my post would lead you to the correct conclusion that I never claimed the Bible to be made up, only your speculation on what Jesus was.
nod :$ Just reread it now :$ my bad :$ Missed a couple of things :$ and soz for putting words in your mouth :)
"One skilled in magic; one who practices the black art; an enchanter; a necromancer; a sorcerer or sorceress; a conjurer."
Ahh, so I see....so therefore, the Charmed Ones are evil (if they were actual people, of course ;)), I'm evil and uhh...most of the Pagan people are evil...riiiiiiiiiightt!!
and i said Magickian ;)
mag·ick ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mjk)
n.
An action or effort undertaken because of a personal need to effect change, especially as associated with Wicca or Wiccan beliefs.
Which, unfortunatly, that word doesn't exsist in the dictionary :( But I ment that he performed magick.
I did not ever say that Jesus was a magician (now look who's putting words into who's mouth, lol ;)). I said, and I quote
You know...Jesus was a magickian
And no, I didn't pull that out of my ass. I pulled it from the discussion on it at CB located HERE (http://charmed-boards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1340), in one of the more mature forums :) And uh...if I wasn't such an idiot, I would've throughly read that thread before pointing that fact out :$ my bad :$
I didn't put any words in your mouth.
Ahh, so I see....so therefore, the Charmed Ones are evil (if they were actual people, of course ), I'm evil and uhh...most of the Pagan people are evil...riiiiiiiiiightt!!
Biblically speaking? Yeah, sorry. Charmed Ones= Witches= Evil, according to the ol' book. Fortunately for the Charmed Ones, the Charmedverse allows for witchcraft to be passed through their blood, eliminating any personal choice for the followed path.
You took out the K which changed the meaning entirely :$ And now, i've been informed that was a stupid thing to say as it would end up making an O/T discusson (my words, not the person's who informed me words ;)).
Why is it that you're evil if you aren't Christian, according to the Christian religion? :s was it because they needed alot of followers or something? :s
I refuse to take any further bait. Your points must lack some serious validity if you have to repeatedly resort to creating comments out of thin air to refute.
Originally posted by Paige
Why is it that you're evil if you aren't Christian, according to the Christian religion? :s was it because they needed alot of followers or something? :s
It's because of the nature of Christianity, which is in the teaching that there is only one way to get to Heaven. It means that everyone else is wrong in their beliefs and they're going straight to Hell.
Wicca, on the other hand, basically says that everyone is right as long as their comfortable in their beliefs, so therein lies the huge difference between Wicca and Christianity. There are others, of course, but the basic difference is in the way each teaches their followers to think.
Thunderstorm
21-11-02, 16:21
this is a post of strictly personal oppinions and I'm not trying to offend anyone.
Before I started to study Wicca, Paganism and The Craft, I used to be christian.
I thought that was the only way to be, but I never felt at ease with what preists told me and what people tried to convince me was right.
I always felt that this God others were giving me, or rather forcing me to believe in, were cold and distant.
"He" wasn't at all what I had worshipped before I even went to church for the first time.
This God I believed in wasn't male or female (but I will use the word she right now)
But she was something much bigger than that, she was in everything.
She was the earth, the sun, the moon and the stars.
And most important of all, she loved me for who I was, and not for what people wanted me to become.
I've read lots about Wicca before...
But a few months ago I started to study for real.
I'm learning a lot, and I've never felt so free and alive in my whole life.
I see the love that is around me, and I feel like I've found what I thought I'd lost as a child.
The thing that made me the happy, loving and wonderful child my mum told me I was when I was young.
By saying that the things I believe in is evil, is like saying that I'm evil.
I've heard that many times, and I can understand that people are afraid of things they do not understand.
I just wish everybody could respect me and my beliefs the same way I respect Christians, Jews, Buhddists, Muslims...
Why is it that just because you don't understand it, it has got to
be evil?
Light, love and Blessed Be.
EowynHalliwell
21-11-02, 17:26
Originally posted by Ashley
Sorry, Eowyn, but that story had me dying laughing. First off, why the late President, who wasn't exactly known for being filthy rich? If I may ask, how old were you and your friends at the time? :laugh:
Ashley,
Heh heh heh -we were all of nine or ten, and I think JFK was big in the liberal Catholic hierarchy then. I don't think he was in the papers for naughty behavior yet, so he was quite a legend then & had a slightly saintly aura-those were the days.
_____________________________________
American Heritage Dictionary:
magick n. An action or effort undertaken because of a personal need to effect change, especially as associated with Wicca or Wiccan beliefs.
magic n. 1. The art that purports to control or forecast natural events, effects, or forces by invoking the supernatural. 2a. The practice of using charms, spells, or rituals to attempt to produce supernatural effects or control events in nature. b. The charms spells, and rituals so used. 3. The exercise of sleight of hand or conjuring for entertainment. 4. A mysterious quality of enchantment: "For me the names of those men breathed the magic of the past" (Max Beerbohm). adj 1. Of, relating to, or invoking the supernatural: "stubborn unlaid ghost/That breaks his magic chains at curfew time" (John Milton) 2. Possessing distinctive qualities that produce unaccountable or baffling effects. tr.v. -icked, -icking, ics To produce or make by or as if by magic. [Middle English magik, from Old French magique, from Greek magike, from feminine of magikos, of the Magi, magical, from magos, magician, magus. See MAGUS.]
magician n. 1. A sorcerer; a wizard. 2. One who performs magic for entertainment or diversion. 3. One whose formidable skill or art seems to be magical: a magician with words.
magus n. pl. magi 1. A member of the Zoroastrian priestly caste of the Medes and Persian. 2. Magus In the New Testament, one of the wise men from the East, traditionally held to be three, who traveled to Bethlehem to pay homage to the infant Jesus. 3. A sorcerer' a magician. [Form Middle English magi,
magi, from Latin magi, pl. of magus, sorcer, magus, from Greek magos, from Old Persian ... [et cetera!]
-------------------------------
Here's another tidbit, from my Roman Catholic young adulthood:
I once confessed to a priest that I had indulged in belief in Astrology and he said, well you know the Three Wise Men were astrologers. He seemed to think it wasn't a very serious sin, if it was a sin. I'm not saying that that is what the RC church teaches, just that it was his own opinion, & one of the more interesting things I ever heard from this particular fellow. I think at the time of Jesus' birth, astrology might have been considered a science. (FYI, if you're interested, even in my skeptical adult mind & heart I still believe this guy actually practiced celibacy, but strangely he was not a strong believer in miracles.)
EowynHalliwell
23-11-02, 11:19
I was going to say, I think the definition of magic and Magick are different & it also depends which dictionary you check. Sometimes the definition is: magic is anything we can't yet explain. I can't remember who said that.
There is also a difference between the "Old" and "New" testaments, which Christians believe, both books: some offenses were punishable by death, such as adultery, witchcraft and murder, but you could still marry as many women as you could get, but the New Testament prohibits multiple marriage.
Gypsy Witch
30-11-02, 16:26
Personally because I am wiccan I think that the person started this thread is a charlatan.
Invincible121
01-12-02, 06:51
Personally I think the person who started this thread is a misinformed fool.
It just shows you what hundreds of years of christian propoganda has done.
Thunderstorm
01-12-02, 09:08
I've had to many people telling me this lately.
"It's evil and a work of the devil!"
If you wanna think so, fine!
But there are some thing I think is better kept to yourself.
Such as the oppinions that somebody's evil, just because they happened to be of another religion.
(yup, I'm in a bad mood)
In my eyes, that's just not right.
But there are some thing I think is better kept to yourself.
Such as the [opinions] that somebody's evil, just because they happened to be of another religion.
It all depends on what religion you are part of as to what opinions you have. Those with opposing opinions to your own have every right to be voiced as your own do.
I'm not trying to say that all magic is evil, I just don't tend to look highly upon magic of any kind. Not only because it's seemingly stupid and pretty much useless, but just based on my beliefs in general.
Thunderstorm
01-12-02, 12:37
Sorry, I just don't see how it can be right to call others "evil" and say that they're "preforming the art of the devil" or whatever.
And now we're talking about people who are nice and helping others!
To think that people who doesen't believe in the devil has sold their soul to him, is just plain crazy!
If only people could see further then their noses!
Do theese persons still believe the world is flat too?
(referring to the, oh-you're-evil-because-you're-wiccan-and-preform-magick-to-heal-and-help-others people)
I'm just asking... because to me it's as crazy to think that a person who helps others and heals others is evil just because he/she doesn't believe in the Christian God is as stupid as saying that if you're a real bullie you're cool and nice cause you believe in the Christian God. :tong:
(and if you don't go around stating that Wiccans are evil and Devil worshippers, don't be offended!)
((If my message didn't get across, sorry!))
(referring to the, oh-you're-evil-because-you're-wiccan-and-preform-magick-to-heal-and-help-others people)
You can perform acts of "magick" and heal people? Kick. Ass! I don't believe you.
I actually don't believe any psycho who claims to be so tapped into Mother Earth that they can use their special magickal powers to heal. If you can't prove it (which you can't), it's bullshit.
Thunderstorm
01-12-02, 13:21
Originally posted by NF
You can perform acts of "magick" and heal people? Kick. Ass! I don't believe you.
I actually don't believe any psycho who claims to be so tapped into Mother Earth that they can use their special magickal powers to heal. If you can't prove it (which you can't), it's bullshit.
Okay...
*shrugs
See, that I CAN understand.
You're free to think it's bullshit.
:tong:
I don't mind
Both of you need to cool it down ;) Specially with the name calling :$ **hides from NF :$**
Gypsy Witch
04-12-02, 15:03
She’s right I believe the person who started this thread is an ignorant fool personally. And they should have read more about the religion then to criticize it and say it’s fake and evil. Allot of Christians really think they are the only right ones and everyone else is going to hell. Let me tell them something they are all full of bologna.
EowynHalliwell
04-12-02, 16:45
Originally posted by Ashley
Wicca, on the other hand, basically says that everyone is right as long as their comfortable in their beliefs, so therein lies the huge difference between Wicca and Christianity.
Christianity teaches that salvation is obtained through faith in and obedience to Jesus. One of the apostles said in what is called the New Testament: " I may do as I wish as long as it does not cause me to sin". I find that this is fairly similar to "An ye harm none, do what ye will", as Wicca uses for a guideline. There are lots of guidelines in Cristianity as to what constitutes sin, such as the Ten Commandments from Moses and the newer commandments to "love one another as Jesus loves you", "refrain from fornication and eating meat sacrificed to idols", do not to anything that will cause another to lose faith in God.
I think there is a difference between magic and Magick, I think -- Magick seems to be a new concept, though maybe based on pre-Christian ideas.
I just wanted to point out that #1 Phoebe did not start the thread, Paige split it off from another thread called "Using Magic". I am not sure that magic is EVIL EVIL EVIL, but for some people it may not be a good idea to use it, as several people including #1 Phoebe pointed out: you don't know what you might be getting into.
Originally posted by NF
Dude. You just said Jesus was a magician. What kind of crack are you smoking? Christianity and Wicca are two completely different religions, so comparing made-up similarities might not help you prove whatever point it is you're trying to get across.
NF, Christianity has ties with old religions...
Actually, many of the pagan symbols used in the old religions were adopted by Christians. Some of the beliefs were tied in as well. There is a good page that I am adding the link to below. I don't profess to be either Wiccan or Chrisitian, but it is important to understand where an argument is coming from before you can make it. This is merely a small sample of how Christianity IS related to Wicca and other religions.
http://www.museumoftalkingboards.com/tri.html
Also some interesting information on the use of the "Celtic" cross:
http://www.younique.us/Celtic/portcullis_celtic-cross_pentacle.htm
Sorry, MadMandy. I was talking beliefs, not friggin' symbols.
I guess that makes you right.:uhh:
Ok then...
Check out the table (http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/1614/Celtwicc/Wicca/Wicca07.htm) at this site and examine the similarities and differences in beliefs for yourself.
The table's about 1/2 way down the page if you want to skip all the reading.
I don't know the author but I think this is the best and quickest comparison of the two religions I have seen yet.
I have to admit I used to know a lot more about this stuff than I do now so don't quote me on any of the stuff I'm about to say ;) .
Firstly, I'd just like to say that the person who started this is a close-minded fool. Honestly. Wicca and Paganism has nothing to do with Satan and the worshipping of him. If somebody follows a religion that focusses on the devil and revering him as a god, then it "sure are hell" ain't one of those two, which are nature-based religions centered on Mother Nature and the gods and goddesses. It's revelling in how beautiful the world can be and journeying to find peace and become at one with nature. As the Wiccan rede details (which somebody mentioned before), An it harm none, do what ye will. Does that sound like Satanism to you? Oh yes, I'm completely evil... but I won't hurt anybody, including myself. Pish-posh, somebody might say. I wouldn't, mind, it just sprang into my head.
Actually, this is all I'm saying for now. I don't want to be misinformed if I try to go any deeper into this and KT looks like a fool enough of the time :wink:
there isnt much of a debate here, coz christianity and wicca really are two separate things. oh, wicca isnt pure evil, nor is it mostly evil. just like most cultures, wicca is a way of life that may be or may not be evil entirely. think: christians do commit sin, but that doesnt make them evil. wiccans commit mistakes( that may equal to sin) but are dubbed evil afterward...heck, im not wiccan, but ive heard a whole lot to know, enough to write this comment...besides, old catholic priests dubbed wicca as evil because they think it leads people away from God. they got one thing correct, though, wicca does lead people away from God( note the capitalization... i am referring to the christian God here..) but wicca in its entirety is not evil as most will say..:corky:
EowynHalliwell
04-03-03, 00:59
I don't know that the Catholic church has ever specifically paid much attention to Wicca. I went to Catholic schools for 13 1/2 years, and not one word was ever said about witchcraft in any form, or Satanism either for that matter. Neither pro nor con.
They were much more occupied with purifying intentions and practicing the sacraments.
Salustiana
20-03-03, 18:58
Growing up in a very Christian household, I remember that the subject of witchcraft was often avoided.
Then I began to grow and interest.
And the year that Charmed came on, and I became and avid fan/obsessor, I got a big lecture from my parents, my sisters, my brother, my church, strangers from my neighborhood...basically ever strong christian that I know decided to tell me that my soul was damned because I was letting the 'forces of evil' into my life by welcoming witchcraft into my home each time Charmed came on.
So I looked it up. In my bible, actually. And it clearly states that all witchs and witchcraft is the work of the devil...
...So, I'm not wiccan, and I cannot say that I know anything about it. But, if true what you claim, that you are not 'worshipping' any satan, for the fact that you believe that he doesn't exist...it sounds...right.
And, of course, as christians, we're taught not to take the bible in any big literal terms. So, maybe it's not trying to state that witchs and witchcraft on itself is evil...but the prospect of believing against Him.
*shakes head
Okay, so I'm going off on crap I don't understand. Please don't quote or flame :D
And, #1 Phoebe, may I point out, that if what you truly believe, that witchcraft is EVIL EVIL EVIL, then what are you doing on a message board, supporting a character that portrays a witch as your 'name', that clearly says it's about witchs. It's about Charmed. Just curious.:reb:
Alright. As a Christian, I am ignorant to the Ways of Wicca, so would you mind sharing somethings with me?
Re: "It is putting Faith in yourself and the powers in the earth, air and water around you."
An oxygen molecule and two hydrogen molecules combine to create one water particle. Do it a whole bunch of times, and you've got yourself a massive amount of said particles, forming a puddle. Soon they'll start to override the small area they're in and begin to move outward, over the land, forming somewhat of a lake.. The human body is mostly water, and often needs to replinish the supply, in order to keep going. It's just water. The same break-down process has been done for both Earth and air.
Based on the now widely-known and equally-accepted scientific specifics of these things, I can't see why one would go about worshiping them as some sort of all-knowing and/or life-assisting force.
Could you [or anyone], by chance, enlighten me on this? Earth, wind, water? Real life isn't an episode of Captain Planet.
Throwing science into this probably won't work out. There are some radical Christians who don't believe in the Big Bang. Arguing science and faith often turns to mass confusion and name calling. :p Theoretically, the Big Bang has been proven. You could even say that the water thing you just talked about has been proven in theory. But there's still people who don't believe in science.
Ahh, but a big difference still exists there. We, as humans, can actually prove the specifics of the aforementioned elements. The Big Bang is merely a probably theory that cannot (and will never) be proven, recreated, or dissected the way that the basics of those elements can. It would seem to me that anyone who argues that water, earth, and air are really blessed gifts upon the planet could be easily refuted by being either shown the process first-hand, or asked for what reason lifeless planets (Like... all of them) are blessed with all of those precious gifts. Right?
I think that "It is putting Faith in yourself and the powers in the earth, air and water around you" is not such a ridiculus statement. Earth, air, and water are powerful in and of themselves, not necessary a THINKING being. All of these elements can kill a human, even a scientific one, by themselves. Together they are even more powerful: mudslides, hurricanes, tornadoes. I think that the faith part comes in the harmony that these elements can have on their own. And science does little for self-esteem.
I know that the fall back for any religious discussions is the prevalence of science today, the "let's explain it away with logic and reason." But what about things thinks that can't be explained? The things that just HAVE to be taken on some sort of faith. Luck, maybe? I don't know, could be.
But having faith in yourself and in things that have been around for eons might not be such a bad thing. Oh, and how many of us have actually ever seen what an oxygen molecule REALLY looks like? I took chemistry...I saw lots of things, but never a microscope THAT good.
MadMandy
:$
SimplyPhoebe
27-03-03, 20:46
I apprciate your comment MadMandy It makes much since. My husband has read this and has said something that really made me think he said
To who mentioned Science and is a christian: If a Scentist was to prove that God exists, would there would be no need for faith.
Good point I thought.
I am perfectly Pipers Sister by the way so i understand what she was saying. And just so that it is known I agree with her
SimplyPhoebe
27-03-03, 20:54
Originally posted by NF
You can perform acts of "magick" and heal people? Kick. Ass! I don't believe you.
I actually don't believe any psycho who claims to be so tapped into Mother Earth that they can use their special magickal powers to heal. If you can't prove it (which you can't), it's bullshit.
I jusr read this part of your comments earlier. You just said and i qoute : If you can't prove it it is bullshit.
Can you prove to me that there is a God? If you could there would be no room for Faith and that is how God exists. By FAITH. If you was to prove him real then we would know for a fact which way to live and believe and all of these religions would crumble.
Something to think about huh.
EowynHalliwell
28-03-03, 01:45
Perfectly Piper:
Christians did not steal Halloween or Christmas trees from Pagans. Halloween is not a Christian holiday, and if a Christian has a carved pumpkin on his/her porch or hands out candy to kids in costume on Halloween, it is not an expression of disbelief in the Christian God or of belief in earth spirits or Pagan beliefs. Roman Catholics have All Souls Day, which is celebrated on the same day as Halloween or the day after, and it may have been created by the church as a reaction to a Pagan Holiday, but All Souls Day is not a Pagan Holiday. Most Christian churches do not celebrated All Souls Day.
Christmas Trees were introduced to the British Royal family by Prince Albert, the husband of Queen Victoria. Christmas trees were a German custom. Prince Albert was German. Christmas trees, despite the name, are not considered Christian, they are just decorative. I have never heard of a Christian who believed erection of a Christmas tree in the house was a religious practice. Many Christians do not have Christmas trees because they were never a part of their heritage. Haitian Catholics do not have Christmas trees and give out gifts on Three Kings Day. Giving gifts is neither specifically Christian or Pagan, it's just a human practice.
Christians are not encouraged to be judge others, unless it is a very carefully considered judgement. You can always find a person who calls himself a Christian, but who is judgemental. You can always find a person who calls himself a Christian, and who either refrains from judgement or only judges others after careful consideration.
______________________________________________
"When a Christian I was taught that if you have faith in God and believe wholeheartedly in him and pray hard enough then God will answer your prayers. It may not be what you want to hear but he will answer them.
When a Wiccian I was taught the same thing through spells and rituals.You think about something so hard and believe that what you are doing is going to help you achieve your goals. It is putting Faith in yourself and the powers in the earth, air and water around you"
You think you will obtain what you want through spells and rituals? What if what you want is not good for you? Will the elemental spirits give you the answer you want to hear or do they have the same divine ability to know when what you ask is not right for you? The same divine ability as God? Is that what you believe? Are spells and rituals just the same as prayer? Why bother with spells and rituals when prayer is simpler? If you have faith in yourself, why do you then need to put faith in the elemental spirits?
All of this is very interesting. Christians ride in cars and airplanes, take medecines produced in laboratories, take fair advantage of many scientific discoveries, but you say:
"You should not have brought Science into it at all. Christians are suppose to believe that God made the earth and all of the elements. (remember I grew up christian and my parents still are) They are not suppose to look for the Science of it all. Just have FAITH that God put all of these elements here for us and will always leave them here."
Galileo was a Christian. He used classic scientific method to arrive at the truth of the way the Solar system is ordered. That's just one example of the way Christians are not forbidden to practice or believe scientific theory. "they are not supposed to look for the science of it all"? Where did you get that idea? Even Jesus encouraged people to look at facts.
" As a Christian, I am ignorant to the Ways of Wicca, so would you mind sharing somethings with me?"
When NF said that, I think he was speaking in theory, because I don't think NF has ever actually decided to be a Christian, don't think he studies the Bible, etc. Okay, I'd be surprised to here him say he really meant it.
I really wonder whether some people are not making up Wicca as they go along, rather than studying it for what it is.
/me surprises EowynHalliwell.
Yeah, I really meant it, EH.
Can I just remind you guys that if you have something else to add... well, the "EDIT!" button isn't just to correct spelling. ;) Also as you said earlier you are a Christian. You should not have brought Science into it at all. Christians are suppose to believe that God made the earth and all of the elements.
First of all, no matter what religion I am a part of, I can think whatever I wish to think. But what makes the fact that I am a Christian who believes in science most irrelevant, is that I believe God created the previously dissected molecules that created all of those wonderful elements that Wiccans worship. Basically, it seems to me that Christians worship the creator, whereas Wiccans worship the creations (and not whoever they think created them). That's basically it.
I've realized, however, that a Christian trying to decipher the logic behind Wicca, is like a Wiccan deciphering the logic behind Christianity. Basically colliding strong beliefs prevent a mutal agreement. I guess this is why people start wars over this shit.
I really wonder whether some people are not making up Wicca as they go along, rather than studying it for what it is.
Word. I've assumed this much for quite some time. I doubt that the preteens going about posting their strong detication to Mother Earth, share the same religious opinions of those who actually study the religions. The thing is, I can barely tell the difference between the two.
EowynHalliwell
28-03-03, 11:21
Originally posted by NF
* NF surprises EowynHalliwell.
Yeah, I really meant it, EH.
/me is surprised, indeed.
But I was pretty darn sure you're not a Wiccan, dude.
On the subject of Faith, Christians believe that it is a gift from God, and focus on Christ before Faith.
Originally posted by Simply Phoebe
If you was to prove him real then we would know for a fact which way to live and believe and all of these religions would crumble.
God is proved to a Christian to be real and other religions do crumble in the face of this fact. Christians do gain knowledge of which way to live, and have more and more guidance in this area. When a church or a person is in error over what constitutes Christianity, the error becomes clear to a person who understands that God is real.
I don't see too many Wiccans who are in love with their God/Goddess the way a lot of Christians are with theirs.
[The "edit" button should be used to put additional comments at the end of your posts, folks, so you don't have to double post within minutes of your original post.]
Originally posted by EowynHalliwell
"You should not have brought Science into it at all. Christians are suppose to believe that God made the earth and all of the elements. (remember I grew up christian and my parents still are) They are not suppose to look for the Science of it all. Just have FAITH that God put all of these elements here for us and will always leave them here."
Galileo was a Christian. He used classic scientific method to arrive at the truth of the way the Solar system is ordered. That's just one example of the way Christians are not forbidden to practice or believe scientific theory. "they are not supposed to look for the science of it all"? Where did you get that idea? Even Jesus encouraged people to look at facts.
I really wonder whether some people are not making up Wicca as they go along, rather than studying it for what it is.
Just wanted to point out here that Galileo was indeed a Christian...who was excommunicated from the Church because his theory challenged that of the Church that the EARTH was the center of the universe. So doesn't that mean he was FORBIDDEN to practice or believe scientific theory?
MadMandy
narniangirl
29-03-03, 16:47
Sounds like Wicca is a lot like Eckankar.
EowynHalliwell
29-03-03, 21:16
I think he was just forbidden to teach the Copernican theory which holds that the Earth, Moon and planets revolve around the sun, rather than the Ptolemaic Theory, which puts Earth at the center of it all. The Church at that time decided he was guilty of heresy, since he went a head and wrote in support of Copernican theory. The Church simply supported the science of Aristotle and Ptolemy, rather than that of Copernicus and Galileo. Big mistake, in view of the facts. The "Church" was just a worldly establishment, not necessarily very representative of the Christian order.
I don't think there is any kind of ban on Science or the study of nature in the Bible, and certainly nothing like the ban on witchcraft. Galileo was not forbidden by Jesus Christ or true Christian teachings to practice science. He was merely persecuted by the hypocrites of his time for publishing support of one particular theory. I don't think most Christians would accuse Galileo today of any heresy. he was just telling the truth as he saw it, and anyone with a brain in their head can see he was right.
So do you see that the study of science is not forbidden by Christianity, but that there are always abuses of Christianity, such as the Inquisition who punished Galileo for telling the truth. And isn't it obvious that the Inquisition is an Ant-Christian institution?
Eckankar?
Originally posted by EowynHalliwell
The "Church" was just a worldly establishment, not necessarily very representative of the Christian order.
Huh? The Church was the Christian order at that time. It was the only acceptable form of religion in Europe during the Middle Ages. And, hindsight is always 20/20. The Catholic Church is still one of the largest religious orders in the world. They are a law unto themselves, actually: the Vatican has its own police force. Freaky, huh?
Truly, I don't argue with the idea the science is now accepted by Christians. I just wanted to make note that using Galileo as a good example for the compatibility of Christian faith and science was a very bad choice.
Also, as to the ban on "witchcraft", I have noted that several scholars dispute the translation of the King James version of the Bible in which they say that "witch" should actually have read "poisoner". This has been attributed to the idea that may of the village healers at that time were herbalists, considered to be heretics, and were also often women, which seemed to be problem for King James.
Quote:
Indeed, Exodus 22:18 is their little verse of ammunition and they just love to quote it and use it against you. However, little do they know that the word "witch" was substituted for the word "poisoner" in relation to those who would poison the royal family in medieval times.
Here are a few references for this:
http://www.christianwicca.com/not_a_witch.html
http://www.geocities.com/vatrovia/truth.html
MadMandy
:blaugh:
EowynHalliwell
30-03-03, 00:19
Originally posted by MadMandy
Huh? The Church was the Christian order at that time.
The Roman Church was just a church set up in the name of Christ. The true Christian Church would be made up not of all Catholics but of all persons found worthy by God of salvation. I am sure there have been many who were full-fledged members of the RC church who were not accepted by God, and many who are higher up in the Church who are not considered by God to be the greatest leaders. Many persons not in the RCC have been considered worthy by God. The Church considered itself to be the Christian Order at that time, but not all Christians had agreed at the time, and I can't see God supporting hypocrasy.
It was the only acceptable form of religion in Europe during the Middle Ages.
Acceptable to itself. I'm sure there were always dissenters and those who practiced Christianity in its pure form. Christianity is what Christ teaches, not just some human interpretation of that. What matters to a real Christian is what is acceptable to God.
I just wanted to make note that using Galileo as a good example for the compatibility of Christian faith and science was a very bad choice.
Sorry, I really admire Galileo for sticking to his guns. I don't see why using Galileo is a bad example for the compatibility of Christian faith and science was a bad choice. He believed in God, he stuck to his guns in the face of persecution by the hypocrites who said they loved God, but didn't. He was a rather good Christian and an outstanding scientist.
Also, as to the ban on "witchcraft", I have noted that several scholars dispute the translation of the King James version of the Bible in which they say that "witch" should actually have read "poisoner". This has been attributed to the idea that may of the village healers at that time were herbalists, considered to be heretics, and were also often women, which seemed to be problem for King James.
I've read a little about the controversy in the interpretation of 'the interpretation of dreams', though I don't know about the above. I can't comment on that, but I often hear condemnation of witchcraft in Christian communities, but not the same about science. Except that the bible advises against seeking after worldly wisdom or at least advises placing common sense and spiritual wisdom above knowledge of the world(Galileo did that, put worldly wisdom in the proper order). But I don't agree with witch hunts, anyway.
Quote:
Indeed, Exodus 22:18 is their little verse of ammunition and they just love to quote it and use it against you. However, little do they know that the word "witch" was substituted for the word "poisoner" in relation to those who would poison the royal family in medieval times.
Here are a few references for this:
http://www.christianwicca.com/not_a_witch.html
http://www.geocities.com/vatrovia/truth.html
MadMandy
:blaugh: [/QUOTE]
I've partly read, partly skimmed the links, and I'm sure there is a reason to suspect that 'poisoners' is what is really meant when speaking of 'witchcraft'. But I think the Christian idea is to avoid spirit worship, or communing with elemental spirits and to follow the lead of the Holy Spirit. I don't see where a Christian should ignore science, as someone mentioned in this thread not long ago.
It's kind of disturbing about the woman who is a Christian Wiccan who believes Christians are so evil. Why would she want to be a Christian if she doesn't know any good ones? I was raised Catholic and if I hadn't seen a few good Christians sprinkle among the hypocrites, I wouldn't feel so warm and fuzzy about Jesus now. I wouldn't be supporting Christianity here.
SimplyPhoebe
30-03-03, 00:27
By Eowyn Halliwell
He was merely persecuted by the hypocrites of his time for publishing support of one particular theory. I don't think most Christians would accuse Galileo today of any heresy. he was just telling the truth as he saw it, and anyone with a brain in their head can see he was right.
Just like Wiccan's were and still are persecuted. I think what Perfectly Piper ment to say when she mentioned Science is that Science complicates things and they way we grew up was that put your faith in God and God only. We are not stupid enough not to think that Christians do not take medicines. I also belive that she did say that she was of no religion. She was just letting you know what she thought and did state that many times that, all she was saying was her OPINION.
As for me. I agree with my sister. She brought up alot of good points. I will let her know that there are people her that have replied to her message so she can come and see if I was in the right. I do tend to miss quote her sometimes.
Basically. Christians persecute anything that they do not understand, fear or can't be proved to them. But everyone is just supposed to believe what they say. take it as gospel and if we do not agree we are wrong and are evil for not believing thier way. My sister and I have grown up and still live in a small southern town with a opulation of about 3,500. We know everyone and everyone knows us. There are very few Wiccians here. Has anyone ever stopped to think that the bible might just be a nice book of stories? Like I said before. If we were to prove that God exsits' then we would no longer have any need for faith.
No not alot of religions crumble in the face of Chrianity. Wicca and pagans have been around longer than Christianity and it will continue to be here. We have our spells and rituals because that is the wasy we practice our religion. You pray, yes they are basically the same thing and no we don't always get the result we want. ALSO if a Wiccian is asking for or doing something bad with their religion, it isn't Wicca they are practicing. We do worship the things that are created but we also worship the creator and that is the Goddess.
I have a qestion for the cathlics. If you are the almoghty religion, then why do you idol worship. You do pray to the mother mary. You have other statues in your churches that you pray to. TO ME that is idol worship. You are suppose to pray only to God.
All this comes down to is that we have the constitutional right to worship ANYWAY we feel. But wiccians do not get that kind of peace and quite christians do because people look at it as evil. Just because you do not understand it does not make it evil. It just makes it different.
And yes Eowyn Halliwell I do no what the EDIT button is for. My computer was running slow and I could not get the EDIT page to load. Seeing as how I use my sisters computer then I supect that is why she did a second post also. If it was any of your business anyway
EowynHalliwell
30-03-03, 02:23
Originally posted by SimplyPhoebe
By Eowyn Halliwell
He was merely persecuted by the hypocrites of his time for publishing support of one particular theory. I don't think most Christians would accuse Galileo today of any heresy. he was just telling the truth as he saw it, and anyone with a brain in their head can see he was right.
Just like Wiccan's were and still are persecuted. I think what Perfectly Piper ment to say when she mentioned Science is that Science complicates things and they way we grew up was that put your faith in God and God only. We are not stupid enough not to think that Christians do not take medicines. I also belive that she did say that she was of no religion. She was just letting you know what she thought and did state that many times that, all she was saying was her OPINION.
Perfectly Piper: "Christians are suppose to believe that God made the earth and all of the elements. (remember I grew up christian and my parents still are) They are not suppose to look for the Science of it all."
That part of it certainly didn't look like an opinion. Why would she not want a Christian to bring up science? Why is that her opinion?
Christians persecute anything that they do not understand, fear or can't be proved to them. But everyone is just supposed to believe what they say. take it as gospel and if we do not agree we are wrong and are evil for not believing thier way.
Not all persons who call themselves Christians act that way. This is a very blanket statement, but maybe everyone in your town who claims to be Christian behaves this way. If that is so, I hope you are thinking of getting away from them. I've gone to radical lengths to get away from people like that.
Has anyone ever stopped to think that the bible might just be a nice book of stories? Like I said before. If we were to prove that God exsits' then we would no longer have any need for faith.
No not alot of religions crumble in the face of Chrianity. Wicca and pagans have been around longer than Christianity and it will continue to be here. We have our spells and rituals because that is the wasy we practice our religion. You pray, yes they are basically the same thing and no we don't always get the result we want. ALSO if a Wiccian is asking for or doing something bad with their religion, it isn't Wicca they are practicing. We do worship the things that are created but we also worship the creator and that is the Goddess.
I do think a lot of religions cannot compare with Christianity.
I don't think prayer is the same as spells and ritual. Christian prayer is communication with God, and it is a communication with Jesus Christ. Wiccan prayer is not connected to Jesus Christ, that I can see, so it's not quite the sme thing. And I don't think Wicca has been around as long as Christianity. Christianity has its roots in ancient Judaism. And I'm more concerned with what is the truth than just what has seemed to have been around the longest.
I have a qestion for the cathlics. If you are the almoghty religion, then why do you idol worship. You do pray to the mother mary. You have other statues in your churches that you pray to. TO ME that is idol worship. You are suppose to pray only to God.
Ask a practicing Roman Catholic, I wouldn't know. Why do Wiccans worship creations, as you say they do?
All this comes down to is that we have the constitutional right to worship ANYWAY we feel. But wiccians do not get that kind of peace and quite christians do because people look at it as evil. Just because you do not understand it does not make it evil. It just makes it different.
Real Christians suffer a great deal for their faith, everyday. My sympathies are with you if you are being persecuted for the sake of righteousness. I am not sure I understand who you are talking to when you say "just because you do not understand it."
And yes Eowyn Halliwell I do no what the EDIT button is for. My computer was running slow and I could not get the EDIT page to load. Seeing as how I use my sisters computer then I supect that is why she did a second post also. If it was any of your business anyway
Good for you, Simply Phoebe, I had no way of knowing that, wasn't sure you understood. Sorry I upset you.
EowynHalliwell
30-03-03, 23:44
I did not at any time persecute any Wiccans or call them evil. You are making that up as far as I can see.
Christians chose December 25 to celebrate Christmas because that was the date the Romans celebrated Saturnalia. They tended to be off celebrating their own holiday, were drunk and lenient during that time. Christianity was not an established religion and so was persecuted by the early Romans. They chose December 25 to avoid persecution, not because they envied a Pagan holiday.
It is quite true about the Christmas trees, that the English tradition of including decorated pine trees started with the German branch of the British Royal family. Pagans don't own all evergreens. How can you say that Christians stole that tradition when Christmas trees are not considered sacred to Christians and are not considered a Christian symbol? I did not ever say that Prince Albert claimed the "Christmas" tree was in any way Christian. A tree is a tree.
I do not know anything about this guy you said invited the tree thing but it isn't true. If he was claiming to be christian he wasn't.
You don't know anything about Prince Albert but you are guessing he claimed to be a Christian. He attended a Christian church with Queen Victoria and raised his children Christian. He seems to have been a very good father and husband, and how is it that you are judging someone you don't know anything about? He introduced the German tradition of having an evergreen tree as a decoration during the Christmas holidays. It is not really a Christian tradition. No Christian has ever claimed to have invented the tradition of having Christmas trees, or bunny rabbits or painted eggs.
Passover is an ancient Jewish tradition, and I don't see how a religion that began 5000 years ago in the middle East got its traditions from Celtic Paganism.
These decorations that you say began with Paganism are just common themes that are not associated with any religion. Rabbit hiding chocolate eggs or painted hen eggs are a modern convention not associated with any religion at all, not Wicca, not Christianity, not Judaism, Buddhism, Zoroatrianism or whatever.
Your link doesn't work for me, you might want to check it.
If you aren't willing to learn anything about the other religion that you are seeking answers for, I mean really learn as in take some time off of being a christian and really study, then you are not going to understand
You are being judgemental here. I am reading the links provided and have read others before to understand Wicca. Don't tell me I don't try to understand. You don't even seem to be very committed to it, you can't decide that the Wiccan tradition that there is a God and Goddess is true. I do think you are searching for answers, but if you are serious about Wicca, shouldn't you know as much as you can about it before you tell me I should put Jesus aside and study your religion and your version of a higher power?
Basically we could try to explain everything at once but you still would not understand it. You have to experience it for yourself. I do not understnad it all myself. Wicca takes years of learning and practice. I did not have the patience for it so I slacked off. I have begun reading some again since I got causght up in this discusion. So mayb ein a a few weeks i might have some other answers for you.
I am not convinced that you are very committed to your religion and you say one has to experience for onesself, but experience what?
Eowyn you mentioned in an earlier statement that you do not see alot of Wiccians in love with thier God like Christians are with thiers. Maybe you aren't looking hard enough. Wiccians do not flaunt thier religion as much because alot of them these days are Solitary Practioners. It is easier to live in Peace that way. I was for me when I was studying it.
I have no reason to look for a needle in a haystack. If Wicca is truly a great way of life, why are not Wiccans trying to share this with everyone? I think NF is right that Pagans worship what is created, rather than worshipping the creator. Why would I stop eating real food in my life, and start eating pictures of food? Pictures of food have real importance, in that when there is a picture of pasta on a package of pasta in a store, it makes it quicker to choose what I am buying. But I don't mistake a food label for the food itself.
I hope I am not being mean, but I want to know why you would say the following:
Eowyn try to understand that Wiccians and pagans are people too and that just because you do not understnad their religion is no reason to persecute them for it or call it evil. they are just practicing a religion just like you.
You are accusing me of saying something I did not say.
By the way, I do not practice a religion, I live my spirituality and try my best to practice the teachings of Christ. This would include the very wise decision to look before I leap, try to examine the consequences of making a major commitment before I decide to make that commitment. That is why I will not abandon all Christian studies and make a commitment to study just Wicca. Especially when I am pretty sure other practioners of Wicca do not see a need to put Christianity aside to practice Wicca, or to study it. Try the Christian Wicca link that MadMandy provided for the opinion of someone who claims to be a practicing Wiccan. But of course I have read a certain amount on the subject of Wicca, though you have strangely informed me that I refuse to understand or study it. I just refuse to swallow your opinion whole and that is my right, and I refuse to perform spells and incantations. I would not ask you to do what you ask of me. It sounds like you are asking me to do more than you yourself would do.
You say do your best and try to live right, but everyone says that. That is just common sense, not a Wiccan tradition.
If the Author of all Creation is available for advice on what is truly right, I would rather go to that Author. I do, as a matter of fact. I do this and I don't slack off. I do my best. I slacked off performing Roman Catholic rituals, because they are just that, rituals. I do not have to do go to confession for God to love me.(but I do try to confess to God when I am wrong) I don't have to say the Hail Mary for God to love me. Drinking from a goblet with a Pentagram on it would not make God love me more and it would not make me love God more or creation more. Saying a spell or incantation wouldn't benefit me, so why would I do it?
(By the way, PP, I understand about wanting to apologize for making a long post, but in this case it's a very important subject. I am sorry if I am being mean, but there are some things here that are very important to me. I do not like casually being accused of persecuting anyone, and I don't think I have called anyone but hypocrites evil. I am not throwing stones or calling names, or trying to stop you from some form of worship. I just do not like being told that my spirituality is based on Paganism. It is not.)
I'm starting to wonder if Wiccans/Pagans (at least on this board) can have their faith questioned without interperting it as condemnation and/or persecution. I asked for an explanation on why W/Ps worshiped the elements that are just there, since I haven't studied it, and don't know. Instead of an answer, I was told that since I don't study it, I wouldn't understand.
Well, not to toot my own horn or anything, but I count myself as a pretty sound-minded guy, able to comprehend a lot of things without extended, hard book study. If any of you are able to give an answer for the aforementioned question, by all means do so. However, if you can't, don't jump to conclusions, put words in my (or anyone else's) mouth, or turn it into an accusation of something that it is not. Simply say that you can't explain it, or don't bother posting. It's not doing anyone any good, and not furthering anyone's knowledge on the subject.
The discussion shifted from from the focus on elemental worship to the history of Science vs. Christianity. Does anyone actually have any kind of explanation on why there is actual worship for water, air, and dirt molecules?
EowynHalliwell
01-04-03, 02:18
t was not what you were saying that was giving me the feeling that you were persecuting some one. It was how you were saying them. All I was doing was giving you the infrmation that I found. If I put words in you mouth I am sorry. I just get defensive sometimes on things. I tried to be as polite as i could be to get you to understand what I was saying. I apologized for my sisters rudness adn still I was (in my opinion) yelled at.
I feel like you are making some pretty outrageous statements. You did put words in my mouth. I don't care for that. I suppose you are going to fall all over yourself apologizing. I feel very exasperated. And not very patient about all of this.
Here is the opinion of a friend of mine who is among other things a Christian preacher:
Incidentally, as a Christian I hold that Wicca and other forms of pagan religions as in the camp of not a good thing and is a dangerous path to follow (in my opinion). However, I do believe that as a Christian I am to love one another and accept their views as their own. [a coworker] is Wiccan and I work in the same office as him ... we have some pretty interesting conversations at times ... - just wanted to clarify that I'm not jumping on your position nor throwing my beliefs at you, but I do want to understand where you are coming from ...
This was in a thread called "Pagan Views" from another board. Notice he never said 'evil', as I never said 'evil'. He said dangerous. The thread was asking for people's opinions of the Pagan view. The Pagans kept insisting that Christians stole Halloween, and a whole lot of other things, from Pagans. The Pagan author of the thread kept insisting that Wicca is the same as Christianity. This was her opinion. Her opinion was that the philosophy is the same. I pointed out to her that Christians believe that they are part of Christ, have the Bible as their basic textbook, and Wiccans do not.
This was my take on Christianity:
Christian morals are centered around one great example, of a man who never once deviated from God's will, the only human who never committed a sin. Although he never created one ripple of bad Karma, he suffered the bad karma of many individuals to heal them and teach them how live as he did.
It's not about spells, symbols, rituals, incantations or anything but living the life we were destined by God to lead, and about surrendering to God's will. It's not about shunning people who practice non-Christian spirituality or religions. If it is about shunning anyone, it's about shunning people who claim to care about other people and about God, but who don't really. These people are dangerous. It is about finding God's will for us, so that we can be happy, though not always unpersecuted.
And by the way, though NF claims to be a Christian, I still think he is just 'yanking chain', or he'd have more to say on the subject, and less four letter words in his posts.
And here I was, thinking that your last post was... ya know, the last one.
If you're so very disassociated from both religions, what made you think you had any stance on the subject, "Christanity vs. Wicca," is beyond me, but I'm sure you had your reasons.
I read your posts and find nothing but one contradiction after another. How can you say you posted what you belive in, yet you "believe only in [your]self"? It doesn't make a damn bit of sense, dear.
I see my question still remains unanswered. Bummer.
EowynHalliwell
01-04-03, 14:08
Perfectly Piper, you complained earlier when NF replied to one of the points in your post that he was only replying to one part of your post. I tried to address as many of your concerns as I could, and then you say I'm dissecting your post.
The reason I introduced the statement by my Christian friend is because he is very kind and had certainly never said anything that could be interpreted by you as persecution, either of you or of Wicca. I did not introduce him to show authority, but to show kindness and true caring.
It's not about spells, symbols, rituals, incantations or anything but living the life we were destined by God to lead, and about surrendering to God's will.
To you is is not about spells and rituals, incantations or anything but living the life YOU were destined to by YOUR God. Some people just do not believe the same way. You believe in your God and that is a wonderful thing.
I am not just giving my own opinion here, you are reducing it to that.
You know what I am tired of apologizing for my beliefs Or rather what I DO NOT believe in. If You are going to accuse me something maybe you might want to read every thing I said. I said I do not believe in Christianity or Wicca. I am of no religion.
You are jumping around saying so many things that I'd have to make it a full time job to keep track of it. You do keep contradicting yourself, as far as I can see.
And nobody here asked you to apologize for whatever it is you do and don't believe in. Least of all me.
Seriously, if you're just going to keep repeating that shit, it'll get spammy. If you actually have something to contribute to the conversation, please do so; I'd be interested to read it. I'd be more interested, however, if you knew something about or were a part of what you were talking about (i.e. Christianity or Wicca and the differences therein).
joeysluvslave
04-04-03, 14:32
Originally posted by #1 Phoebe
Well actually magic is EVIL EVIL EVIL it's the work of the DEVIL and you guys shouldn't be messing around with that crap just because you see it on t.v. doesn't mean it's good and that you should practice it.:shout: The actors on Charmed really doesn't have those powers you know that don't you:dis: I will pray for you all!!!
Actually magic was happening centuries before chramed was ever thought about. Just because most people who watch charmed are wiccans doesnt mean to say that charmed made they a want to be a witch.
who says that magic is crap and evil, it is both because of nature and because nature is both good and evil.
id like to add something after reading all of this;
wiccans are actually very forgiving.
not all wiccans are evil (i myself am not.)
pretty much all religions grew from paganism so really we are all christian, catholic, wiccan, pagan and all the other relgions in the world , we are all the same. why cant people accept that? someone tell me. we may all prey (in all forms) to different gods but that is because maybe we dont like the practises of other religions and faiths so we choose one that we do agree with and would willingly follow for our life.
i myself dont really agree with cristianity because i have not had good encounters shall we say with your god. thats the reason why i dont belive on god and follow the wiccan religion.
if anyone is curious why i dont follow christianity then checkout my profile and send me an email maybe i can explain more indepth why most of us choose to do what we do.
EowynHalliwell
04-04-03, 21:04
Not sure how badly I want to get into this again, but I don't see how Christianity came from Paganism. Christianity to some extent has been influenced by some other religions, but mainly it came about with a particular man who is held to be god by his followers.
Have you ever seen My Big Fat Greek Wedding? You know when the dad tries to take every English and make up a way that it originated from a Greek word?
Yeah, it's like that, with candles.
Hmm, Wicca reminds me of Pagan, a religion...and Christian is Christian. I have a friend that's pagan, and they have couvans, stuff and amulets...but they believe that their god is the devil - oh, well, it's just her religion...
Then she is not a real pagan. She must be a part of something different.
Paganism and Wicca are related, both use nature as power, and neither of them worship the devil or anybody who practices are not Satanists.
Then again, I hope I'm reading your post right. You said, Raynor, that they believe that their God is the devil. So you mean that they look up to the devil (Satanists) or did you make a little error and you meant to say that they believe God (as Christians believe--not sure about this though) is the devil?
Hope that makes sense.
EowynHalliwell
06-04-03, 01:26
Never saw.
It would be interesting to study whatever it is that makes people think Christianity began with another religion. Christians claim Jesus is part of the God who made the entire universe including Pagans, so it'd be a bit difficult to prove that Christianity came from Paganism rather than Paganism coming from the need for religion, without knowledge of the need for redemption, or expectation of the coming of a Savior.
Speaking of language:
They took many things even "Hel" from paganism(Hel is the goddess of the dead in Heathenism)
the above is from a thread at the other board that I think I mentioned, claiming that the Christians stole the idea of Hell, but I think that JC referred to Gehenna(a pit of ever-burning garbage that existed outside a town)as the form of existence in which the unrepentant will burn for eternity, and persons afterward called that Hell. The burning isn't the same as fire, it'd be like burning with resentment, anger, shame, etc.
[Edit: I started typing this post right after NF's so didn't see Aradia's or Raynor's--but so tired I can't reply yet! G'night :bye:]
I took some days away from this conversation to see if anything interesting was spoken...but apparently not. After the tidbit about Galileo, things took a really bad turn. NF questions why the Wiccans feel attacked; it seems that way. Several posters have labeled the Wiccans as "evil". Their morals and beliefs have been questioned, yet, when a Christian is questioned in the same way, a certain "righteous" anger can be felt in their reply.
I have interest in the idea of religion, period. Faith is an important concept in our society. Humans take a great deal on faith in our day to day lives.
However, the conversation here has degenerated into more flaming than anything else. Examples, facts, and general common sense have fled. Everyone here obviously has some access to the Internet. Check out these topics; make sensible statements.
The title of this entire thread is labeled with "vs". Maybe some of the posters actually see this as a "battle of religion". I think the whole purpose should be to gain understanding.
:$
MadMandy
joeysluvslave
10-04-03, 07:34
i totally agree with madmandy. i know that i have thrown my spanner in the works a few times but not with the intension this happening, this has turned from a lighthearted disscusion into full blown argument :argue:
everytime i have put a post up it was to defend other wiccans like me and everytime people turn it into something bad and have a go at us. if a christian has a go at a wiccan it is viewed as a good thing. if a wiccan has a go at a christian we are viewed as evil and bad people and we are verbally tared and feathered. its not right :dis:
i am all for people right to express themselves and to talk about their religion but i dont belive in badmouthing other peoples religion and beliefs. this started out as a way to discuse the differences between christianity and wicca/witchcraft and i turned into the salem witch trials. people have taken this too seriously and really need to ease up a bit and not take these talks too serious!
what happened?
joeysluvslave
Well, in this case, what happened was what has already happened several times before: Things were blown out of porportion, somehow making Wiccans/Pagans the martyrs and the Christinas, the self-righteous flame-throwers. Whatever.
Intent of my question: Gain knowledge.
Question: Still unanswered.
joeysluvslave
10-04-03, 13:36
Originally posted by NF
Well, in this case, what happened was what has already happened several times before: Things were blown out of porportion, somehow making Wiccans/Pagans the martyrs and the Christinas, the self-righteous flame-throwers. Whatever.
.
my thoughts exactly. at least im not the only one who thinks this. you just put it a better way than i could. thank you
What I was trying to convey was that the aforementioned efforts to cast a better light on Wiccans by way of saying Christians are being mean, were inaccurate and over-used.
joeysluvslave
10-04-03, 13:51
what im trying to say is that people keep turning things around and making them into what its not meant to be.
wiccans beliefs are being blown out of proportion and so are christians.
EowynHalliwell
11-04-03, 01:18
#1 Phoebe, who has been scolded by quite a few members, and probably rightly so, I myself said her methods were quite heavyhanded, is about the only person I've heard here persecuting Wicca. She has got her comeuppance, and lots of people who read this this thread months later, have continued to make comments to the effect that they think she's wrong.
Zuzu:I've had to many people telling me this lately.
"It's evil and a work of the devil!"
If you wanna think so, fine!
But there are some thing I think is better kept to yourself.
Such as the oppinions that somebody's evil, just because they happened to be of another religion.
Sorry, I just don't see how it can be right to call others "evil" and say that they're "preforming the art of the devil" or whatever.
And now we're talking about people who are nice and helping others!
To think that people who doesen't believe in the devil has sold their soul to him, is just plain crazy!
If only people could see further then their noses!
Do theese persons still believe the world is flat too?
(referring to the, oh-you're-evil-because-you're-wiccan-and-preform-magick-to-heal-and-help-others people)
I'm just asking... because to me it's as crazy to think that a person who helps others and heals others is evil just because he/she doesn't believe in the Christian God is as stupid as saying that if you're a real bullie you're cool and nice cause you believe in the Christian God.
Sorry, Zuzu, but I feel like you are just generalizing and carrying on a stereotype about Christians. This is the problem I have with accusations about persecution. For most people it just seems to be their imagination. If you've really been persecuted, it seems you can say so here, as Salustiana did:
Salustiana: And the year that Charmed came on, and I became and avid fan/obsessor, I got a big lecture from my parents, my sisters, my brother, my church, strangers from my neighborhood...basically ever strong christian that I know decided to tell me that my soul was damned because I was letting the 'forces of evil' into my life by welcoming witchcraft into my home each time Charmed came on.
Now that's persecution. How could those 'Christian' people say someone is damned because they watch a tv show? Certainly there is no way someone is saved from damnation just from watching a Christian tv show. I don't believe that and no person who is truly obedient to Jesus would say that, or thay would kindly say that practicing witchcraft can be dangerous because when you deal with unseen spirits you don't always know what you are dealing with. There are some people who claim to be Christians for bad reasons: they want attention, they are bossy, they want to steal from others by becoming church leaders and dipping into the till, they hurt little children, they find all kinds of ways to be jerks. I would definitely say to stay away from these so-called "Christian" people, they are the worst sorts of folks.
Talula: Like Eowyn said, Christians do just as much evil as anyone. Does the phrase "King Richard and the Crusades" mean anything to you? Big giant holy war. And then I'm sure Richard went to confession and repented....maybe...
I'm the first to admit there is much evil done in the name of Christianity, but not every Christian deserves to be lumped with the bad ones. Some Christians do what they are supposed to do.
If anyone feels they have been persecuted by NF, then it's time for everyone to realized that NF is the same way with everyone, not just Wiccans, if he sees something he thinks is wrong, he says so, and not always with sugar on it. Believe me. He's not a Christian, either(I'm pretty darn sure, correct me if you will, oh Blue-digited One), so don't claim you've been persecuted by a Christian if it's only NF. I appreciate NF because he has a tendency to cut through a lot of baloney. I think he gets a little strong sometimes, but no one's perfect. He never did get an answer to his question except from me, but no Wiccan has stood up to say what they believe.
As for me, I do like Jesus, and I do not think I'm being self righteous. Perfectly Piper has been perfectly self-righteous, has made all sorts of accusations that are not true, about Christianity. She has not really given any information to support what she says. MadMandy gives links, which make some sense.
But from Simply Phoebe I hear this:
Simply Phoebe: Christians persecute anything that they do not understand, fear or can't be proved to them. But everyone is just supposed to believe what they say. take it as gospel and if we do not agree we are wrong and are evil for not believing thier way.
I don't thump the bible or tell anyone they are going to hell. I'm not throwing scripture quotes at anyone. I am not condemning anyone for Wiccan practices, but I do get rather hot under the collar when someone says, 'you're persecuting me, in my opinion, I just feel that way.' What I have been doing is refuting some rather outrageous claims made by Perfectly Piper, who says Christians stole all kinds of things from Pagans, claims Christians don't believe in science. I've given some pretty good answers to those, but I'm told by her that I don't know what I'm talking about.
If there are some Christians who call Simply Phoebe evil, it's not me. I do think she's generalizing and stereotyping, and I never called her evil. There a some Christians who wouldn't speak this way.
MadMandy: I took some days away from this conversation to see if anything interesting was spoken...but apparently not. After the tidbit about Galileo, things took a really bad turn. NF questions why the Wiccans feel attacked; it seems that way. Several posters have labeled the Wiccans as "evil". Their morals and beliefs have been questioned, yet, when a Christian is questioned in the same way, a certain "righteous" anger can be felt in their reply.
I have interest in the idea of religion, period. Faith is an important concept in our society. Humans take a great deal on faith in our day to day lives.
However, the conversation here has degenerated into more flaming than anything else. Examples, facts, and general common sense have fled. Everyone here obviously has some access to the Internet. Check out these topics; make sensible statements.
The title of this entire thread is labeled with "vs". Maybe some of the posters actually see this as a "battle of religion". I think the whole purpose should be to gain understanding.
I kept up the conversation about Galileo, no one else was interested in continuing it. Here is a link to the GALILEO PROJECT (http://es.rice.edu/ES/humsoc/Galileo). Here is a link to an account of how Christmas trees became an English custom: PRINCE ALBERT, PRINCESS CHARLOTTE AND THE GERMAN TRADITION (www.hymnsandcarolsofchristmas.com/O%20Tannenbaum/09-The%20Victoria%20and%20Albert%20Tree.htm)
And I have only heard #1 Phoebe condemn Wiccans as evil. Maybe I have missed the other posters who attacked Wicca, other than I suppose NF, who has a point. He's not calling anyone evil, however, he just has a question about a Wiccan belief, and none of the Wiccans care to answer it. I have not condemned anyone's beliefs, just argued against lies. Those who believe this thread is for enlightenment may stop accusing others of attacking them if it didn't really happen. If it's just a general feeling you have, there must be some reason. Don't be so afraid to say it. Enlighten us. I also believe I made a comment to the effect that I think some people are claiming to be Wiccan, but have not studied their religion much. MadMandy and some others have represented themselves better than that. Please don't think that I think that's a Wiccan trait, you can find members of every religion who just tend to skim some books and then decide what they want to believe, rather than understanding what's written.
Joeysluveslave:i totally agree with madmandy. i know that i have thrown my spanner in the works a few times but not with the intension this happening, this has turned from a lighthearted disscusion into full blown argument
everytime i have put a post up it was to defend other wiccans like me and everytime people turn it into something bad and have a go at us. if a christian has a go at a wiccan it is viewed as a good thing. if a wiccan has a go at a christian we are viewed as evil and bad people and we are verbally tared and feathered. its not right
i myself dont really agree with cristianity because i have not had good encounters shall we say with your god. thats the reason why i dont belive on god and follow the wiccan religion
i am all for people right to express themselves and to talk about their religion but i dont belive in badmouthing other peoples religion and beliefs. this started out as a way to discuse the differences between christianity and wicca/witchcraft and i turned into the salem witch trials. people have taken this too seriously and really need to ease up a bit and not take these talks too serious!
I think you are exaggerating. This is not a witch trial. You are not going to be burned, reported to the Spanish Inquisition, NO ONE has tarred and feathered you, not in this thread.
i myself dont really agree with cristianity because i have not had good encounters shall we say with your god. thats the reason why i dont belive on god and follow the wiccan religion
Joey'sluvslave, You are saying you've had bad encounters with the Christian God. What does that mean? I've had bad encounters with the Christian God, too, but only in the sense that other people who claim to be Christians have misrepresented God to me. I do not any longer mistake other peoples' prejudices about God to be the truth. Jesus himself said that hypocrites would come, pretending to act in his name, but in reality they have no love for God.
joeysluvslave: if a wiccan has a go at a christian we are viewed as evil and bad people
Oh, come on. It seems to me that Christians are way outnumbered in this thread. I believe you said in an earlier post that Christianity came from Paganism. I replied that I don't see how that's so. There was your opportunity to enlighten me. I didn't say you were evil or a bad person. I did not jump on you. I just don't see how it's so. Christianity came from Jesus Christ, who was a Jew, not a Pagan. Some times the Jews adopted nonjewish traditions, such as circumcision. But it was because the Jews asked for it, not because God told them to. God told them they should not do this, but they insisted. Jesus Christ told the Jews it was not a divinely approved practice. It's not really a Christian practice, either, though some Christians practice it, only as a hygiene measure, as far as I can see. In fact, the original Christians said it was not a requirement for Christians, and discouraged the practice. Sometimes people who convert to Christianity bring some practices from their old religion, such as in Haiti. Voodoo is practiced by some who also attend Christian churches, usually Catholic. Christianity didn't steal these practices, and they are not approved of by the Catholic Church or any other church.
MadMandy, you posted a link to a the viewpoints of a Christian Wiccan. I did read it and I did come up with question, why does this person want to be a Christian if Christians are as bad as she says they are. I never got an answer. You don't have to answer if you don't want to. If you took this as persecution, I'm not sure why. I think it's a legitimate question. It concerns both Wicca and Christianity, and is not out of place in this thread. Do you think this is too controversial?
I'm sorry you are all feeling put upon, and if you want to continue the discussion about the differences and likenesses between Christianity and Wicca, that's fine with me. I would particularly like to hear from anyone who thinks I've persecuted anyone or told them they are an agent of Satan. I don't think so. I know I haven't. I keep hearing how Christians can say what they want, but Wiccans get jumped on. I would say that it's gone both ways here. If a certain 'righteous anger can be detected in [my] reply', perhaps it's because I don't care to be told I'm evil. I haven't joined a crusade, forbidden anyone to practice their religion. I haven't printed up anti-Wicca literature, or Kill the Pagans pamphlets. But if you claim I am persecuting you, prove it. This is America and one of our basic rights is that we are innocent till proven guilty.
NF: What I was trying to convey was that the aforementioned efforts to cast a better light on Wiccans by way of saying Christians are being mean, were inaccurate and over-used.
Did anyone understand this quote. Don't try to make Wicca look good just by saying Christians are mean to you, especially you who refused to say HOW you are being persecuted. Some of you it is hard to take seriously, other than Salustiana, who has stated her case well and named the particular Christians who did the persecuting. I have respect for that. I don't have too much respect for people wallowing in self-pity just because they suspect Christians of persecuting them. Sorry, that's not PC, but really, why waste your time if you can't support what you say.
joeysluvslave
12-04-03, 15:28
eowynhalliwell i didnt say that christians were persicuting wiccans all i said was that all wiccans were being called evil because of the few evil wiccans out there. you yourself said that wasnt fair when all christians were getting called evil bacause of a select few who have used religion as an excuse to do evil things.
as for my earlier comment about bad experiences with the christian god. the deal is a was led to believe that if you did good things you would be rewarded by having a good life. well i di good things and yet i had so very upsetting things happen to me which made me change faiths. And unlike when some people have changed faiths they havent research what it involves i did as well as several other religions and in the end i chose wicca.
now for one of the other quotes that you used from zuzu(and this comment is not aimed at eowynhalliwell) when wiccans use magic to help and cure people its to help them and make them feel better. how could helping people be evil when most christians pride themselves on being helpful and kind to other people. you do know that some people make a living out of helping other people get better and have a better life. are they evil too?
joeysluvslave, you said "because of the few evil wiccans out there". I myself do not think that there is a such thing as an evil wiccan. Wiccans practice good magick and therefore, a "wiccan" who uses magick for evil, cannot be considered wiccan any more.
EowynHalliwell
12-04-03, 23:17
I used the comments from Zuzu to show what I thought was an unfair and not well thought out set of statements about Christians.
Joeysluvslave: everytime i have put a post up it was to defend other wiccans like me and everytime people turn it into something bad and have a go at us. if a christian has a go at a wiccan it is viewed as a good thing. if a wiccan has a go at a christian we are viewed as evil and bad people and we are verbally tared and feathered. its not right
It sounds like you are saying that everytime you defend a Wiccan, you think it gets turned into something bad, and others "have a go at you" if you defend Wiccans. "If a Christian has a go at a Wiccan it is viewes as a good thing." That's what you said, and I don't think it's true, not in this thread. Everybody seems to be speaking their mind pretty clearly and defending their own point of view pretty well. I don't think too many can be accused of persecution here. I think there are a few who have slung some nasty mud, but not many and they've all been pretty well refuted.
Here is another thing you said:
all i said was that all wiccans were being called evil because of the few evil wiccans out there
All Wiccans are being called evil by who? One crackpot who seems to have dropped out of the argument?[#1 Phoebe?] If you are beiing called evil, it's not by me.
now for one of the other quotes that you used from zuzu(and this comment is not aimed at eowynhalliwell) when wiccans use magic to help and cure people its to help them and make them feel better. how could helping people be evil when most christians pride themselves on being helpful and kind to other people. you do know that some people make a living out of helping other people get better and have a better life. are they evil too?
I have no idea why anyone thinks healing is evil, so can't answer the question. Let me tell you that if you feel persecuted by someone like Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell, you don't have much to worry about. These are people who are shallow, lukewarm "Christians", who fit the definition of Hypocrite very well. They seem to have no concern to have God's Kingship over them, which is exactly what the definition of God's Kingdom is to a Christian.
Whatever persecution or difficulty you felt if you were trying to get closer to the Christian God, it is not because God is evil or cruel or makes mistakes. I don't know what sort of difficulties you are talking about, but I think I can say the same thing has happened to me many times. Imagine if you decided to run for mayor in your town. Suddenly you will have opposition and troubles from all sorts of people who don't want you to be mayor. Organized crime doesn't want a mayor who isn't corrupt, other mayoral candidates start digging up dirt on you, and making up lies. Maybe members of your family don't want you to be mayor because it will take time you could be spending with them. Difficulties are to be expected whenever you try to do something good, and some people would say that to really be a Christian would be the ultimate good. So you can certainly expect a great deal of resistance, especially the more you wish to please God. This is not God making the difficulties. In my case there were people who were jealous of me and made my life very difficult when I wanted to be a Christian. I am still struggling through this, have not been baptized and do not belong to an organized church. This does not mean I will never be baptized or belong, just that I know I have many many many good reasons for taking a good long look at how and when to proceed.
By the way, it's an old saying but a true one: "No good deed goes unpunished".
Whether you are most Wiccans and Christians acknowledge that there are spiritual entities other than God or Goddess; Wiccans at least seem to acknowledge nature spirits, as do Christians. Christians acknowledge angels and demons, and Satan. Satan is the supreme evil, who is a very powerful immortal entity who is ultimately destructive. If you have tried to practice Christianity with any seriousness, you will have encountered evil spirits whether you realize it or not. Some are there to make you believe that when you do something good, you are doing the wrong thing, and vice versa. Some are there to confuse you, others are there to make you ill. There are many. You say you have had a bad encounter with God, but I have a feeling what was bad was either people or spiritual entities who wish to harm any Christians. There are lots of people who masquerade as Christians who get away with it, and fool a lot of people.
I wish once and for all not to be accused of badmouthing anyone else's religion, except for hypocrasy and Satanism. They both suck, and I think anyone has a right to say so.
If anyone has anymore complaints about being persecuted by a member, please either say who the member is and what they said that hurts so much, or report the post to a moderator with that information.
And one last point about doing what is good:
joeysluvslave: as for my earlier comment about bad experiences with the christian god. the deal is a was led to believe that if you did good things you would be rewarded by having a good life. well i di good things and yet i had so very upsetting things happen to me which made me change faiths. And unlike when some people have changed faiths they havent research what it involves i did as well as several other religions and in the end i chose wicca.
Jesus promised not an easy life, but inner peace if you follow obey him and follow his example. Anyone who promises the Christian life is an easy one is a big fat liar. If you do good, you will indeed be rewarded by God, but you will also be persecuted and bad things can happen to you as a result. Jesus did absolutely no wrong ever in his life, but as soon as he started his ministry, he was persecuted for no good reason, tortured and killed. Yet God did reward him with millions of followers and eternal life and kingship and eternal peace after his short time of hardship on earth. If you only expect worldly advantages for being a Christian, you are very likely to be rewarded. God gives some people riches so they can help others and health so they can help others. If you only want good things for yourself so you can have fun, God might not give them to you, or he may and then allow them to be taken away. If you are only in it for what you want, you are probably not going to stick with it very long. You have to ask God to make sure your motives are pure. You have to put into practice what God tells you to do, or you will not be rewarded.
Religion is not something you can argue about, you all seem to be on the defensive, chill, it is a persons choice as to what they believe. Some of you argue good points but some seem a bit confused, people should be open to other ideas. I'm not criticizing anyone, you all seem genuine, just some opinions are a bit OTT or old fashioned. Chill! :pounding:
joeysluvslave
13-04-03, 06:45
eowynhalliwell i dint say that you were knocking peoples choice of religion i said that other people where namely the one #1 phoebe who has dropped out of this disscusion rather quickly when thigs heated up and nf who were having a go.
and with this comment i am not going back on things that i have already said but you have shed a new light on some of the things i have said and believed.
aradia i dont think i wrote what i meant as clearly as i thought i had. what i meant was there are people who have used magic for evil and because they used magic people brand them wiccan and the rest of us get a bad name for it. do you know what i mean?
Thunderstorm
13-04-03, 08:45
I am not even going to pretend that I have read all the posts that has been posted during my time in the BB house, but I do want to have a few things said.
Many people who are very anti- Wicca and don't understand it never will.
They think it's too much fantasy and fairytale for them to take it seriously.
The same way many Wiccans will never understand the Christian or atheisic people they meet in life, because we have a very different way of seeing nature, life and spirituality.
While I see Christianity like a big world of rules and regulations that I think takes natural and sacred pleasure out of our life.
I see Wiccanism as a way to enhance that pleasure one can give and recieve in life.
I also think that each and every person have their own way of veiwing their religon.
I have never met two people who have the exact same kind of faith.
Everybody is unique, and so is their way of viewing the devine.
While some people may think that what I believe in is a buch of flowery and romatic dreams.
It is what I believe in, and I don't think I will ever change my mind.
I might evolve in my faith, but I think that I will always be a Wiccan.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~The Wiccan Rede~~~~~~~~~~~~
Abide the Wiccan law ye must,
in perfect love and perfect trust
eight words the wiccan rede fullfill
"an' it harm none, do what ye will"
And ever mind the rule of three;
what ye send out comes back to thee
follow this with mind and heart
and merry ye meet, and merry ye part
joeysluvslave
13-04-03, 14:57
zuzu is SO right. i cant even start to write all the ways that she is right because i would be going for an hour but she is so right.
i mean the people i practise with dont take wiccan the same way that i do.
my mate who is christion doesnt take it the same way as his parents do.
all of what zuzu said is everything that i failed to think about. i also think that some others may not have thought about it that way too.
Okay, now I get what you mean, joeysluvslave.
As a Wiccan, I try not to think about Christian people and what Christian people might think of me because I chose to be Wiccan. It just gives me a really big headache. And one of these very annoying people at school, I don't even think that they even are Christian, was arguing with me about how I'm evil. Dammit, don't you think I would know if I was freakin' evil. I mean, it's not like I casted a spell to turn you all into frogs! It shows you that Christians aren't the only ones.
joeysluvslave
14-04-03, 07:02
Originally posted by Aradia
As a Wiccan, I try not to think about Christian people and what Christian people might think of me because I chose to be Wiccan. It just gives me a really big headache. And one of these very annoying people at school, I don't even think that they even are Christian, was arguing with me about how I'm evil. Dammit, don't you think I would know if I was freakin' evil. I mean, it's not like I casted a spell to turn you all into frogs! It shows you that Christians aren't the only ones.
i know someone at school started an argument with me too on how being a wiccan was bad and evil. i mean they know nothing about the workings of wicca and therefore dont know what goes on in the religion. i think all they want people to do is put a curse on them to turn them into toads (doesnt happen though) just for the fun of it.
I know exactly what you mean. They just assume these things about Wiccans and actually know NOTHING about the religion or that our spells and stuff are not to curse people, but to help.
I don't go around saying things about how Christians are fecking nutcases who believe in Satan and stuff like that. Because I don't know a freakin' thing about Christianity. So I'm not going to walk around like a big-shot and assume things about the people who choose to practice this religion. I don't do it, so why do they have to?
Perfectly Piper, the fact that the Easter Bunny and the hunts s/he inspires is derrived from a Wiccan practice/ritual/tradition really doesn't mean much in my opinion. I don't care if Santa Clause is based on a Wiccan healer who dyed his clothing red with berries and gave out pine cones to the good children of the village in years of yore. Neither the Bunny, nor Santa have anything at all to do with actual Christianity, and therefore cannot support your theory that Christanity is in any way based upon Wicca.
I think we can all agree that there are ignorant people who love nothing more than to negatively critique other religions of which they know nothing about. Those who claim to be Christian and Wiccan alike. I belive that such people should just simply be ignored, as their opinions are completely empty. This being a fact, I don't see much point in debating it. No one here has been strongly "persecuted" for their belief by anyone but #1 Phoebe who certainly epitomizes the aforementioned religiously ignorant fool.
Not to beat a dead horse to glue, but about 300 posts back, I asked a question that has yet to be answered. I don't keep referring to it in an effort to prove that no one knows what they're talking about, but because I'm actually very interested to find out. "Does anyone actually have any kind of explanation on why there is actual worship for water, air, and dirt molecules?" The question may sound condescending and rhetorical, but it's one that I would like to learn the answer (or an answer, as might be more apt) to.
EowynHalliwell
15-04-03, 01:58
originally posted by AradiaI know exactly what you mean. They just assume these things about Wiccans and actually know NOTHING about the religion or that our spells and stuff are not to curse people, but to help.
I don't go around saying things about how Christians are fecking nutcases who believe in Satan and stuff like that. Because I don't know a freakin' thing about Christianity. So I'm not going to walk around like a big-shot and assume things about the people who choose to practice this religion. I don't do it, so why do they have to?
"They" don't. Some of them do, usually because they have screwed up egos and believe they know it all. But not all Christians feel that way and some Christians claim they practice Wicca along with Christianity. So it doesn't do to generalize and lump all Christians together. But I believe you when you say some Christian gave you some grief and hasn't bothered to find out about Wicca.
-----------------------------------
originally posted by Perfectly PiperEaster ( which is my 1 year wedding anniversary by the way) I am not speaking of the resurrection of Jesus but the way we celebrate it. Hunting eggs and cute little bunnies. That stuff has absolutly nothing to do with the resurrection of Jesus and I think even you will admit that. That certain practice was taken from the Pagan fertility goddess whose symbols were and egg and a rabbit.
You have a way of perfectly ignoring what I've already posted. Christmas trees, despite the name, are not a Christian symbol. Bunny rabbits are not a Christian symbol. They have nothing to do with Christianity, no Bishop or priest or nun or radio or tv preacher or Saint or Jesus has ever claimed any of these are part of Christian practices. It's like you can't even read, or you read so selectively that you completely turn things around. Here is what I posted on 3-31-03:
originally posted by EowynHalliwellChristians chose December 25 to celebrate Christmas because that was the date the Romans celebrated Saturnalia. They [the Romans] tended to be off celebrating their own holiday, were drunk and lenient during that time. Christianity was not an established religion and so was persecuted by the early Romans. They chose December 25 to avoid persecution, not because they envied a Pagan holiday.
This is how Christmas came about. I could tell you a great deal more about how things came about, but It's like talking to a very dense brick wall.
Here's another quote of mine from the same date:
originally posted by EowynHalliwellThese decorations that you say began with Paganism are just common themes that are not associated with any religion. Rabbit hiding chocolate eggs or painted hen eggs are a modern convention not associated with any religion at all, not Wicca, not Christianity, not Judaism, Buddhism, Zoroatrianism or whatever.
So you are again putting words in my mouth again when you say:
originally posted by Perfectly PiperHunting eggs and cute little bunnies. That stuff has absolutly nothing to do with the resurrection of Jesus and I think even you will admit that.
Gee, oh the telepathy you display when you say even I have to admit that bunny rabbits and easter eggs are not a part of the Christian religion. Of course they are not, I have already said so. I have never ever heard anyone say they were. But YOU are claiming I said that. YOU are lying.
originally posted by Perfectly PiperI have spoken to some other christians about the whole Christians having some of the same Practices as the Wiccians. They have admitted that Christians do have alot to do with Pagan Holidays. The facts are out there and I do not understand that if other people can admit that why you can't.
"Christians have a lot to do with Pagan Holidays". Who is telling you this? What is your source? For all we know this is someone's opinion, and we all know you put a lot more stock in opinion than in fact, at least it sure seems so to me. I have explained the origin of Christmas, I think the origin of the Easter that Christians celebrate is simply related to Passover, the Jewish Holiday. The Bible pretty clearly illustrates the relationship of Easter to Passover, so we know it didn't come from a Pagan Holiday, was not an echo of a Pagan holiday. Christmas isn't either a Pagan Holiday, in case you can read, I've explained that twice. Not that you care. It is very obvious you want to argue not spread facts or verify them. I could explain a lot more but you wouldn't listen except to repeat what I say and then claim you thought of it.
originally posted by Perfectly PiperI do admitt that i am one who helped turn this conversation into an all out battle. I do apologize to everyone who got on here and saw that. It was not my intention.
If that's not your intention, then stop putting your words in my mouth, and start READING with the intent of understanding. If you are so sorry, you should have used that good old edit button and taken your aggravating lie out of your post. You SAY you apologize, but you always say such sweet nice things after you've said something rotten. It's too bad you can't admit that. Let's turn this back into a FACTUAL thread and start giving links or book titles to what we've said, links that actually work, Perfectly Piper. I suffered a bad accident recently, but when I am able to walk again, I hope I will be able to get to the library and find some of the sources for the information about Holidays. If anyone really wants to know, that is. I don't think PP is interested in facts and will find a way to ignore them, so they are wasted on her.
NF, I think the worship of elemental spirits and or the elements themselves might have come from a need to worship something, but just not having information about other options. That's the only answer you may get, but I am far from a practicing Wiccan/Pagan, and that is my opinion but it's based on a lot of reading about human nature.
[edit: sorry, Zuzu, didn't see your post, we posted about the smae time. EH]
Thunderstorm
15-04-03, 02:19
Originally posted by NF
"Does anyone actually have any kind of explanation on why there is actual worship for water, air, and dirt molecules?" The question may sound condescending and rhetorical, but it's one that I would like to learn the answer (or an answer, as might be more apt) to.
The worship you are talking about is obviously the worship of the elements (correct me if I am wrong) and these elements are, maybe not as much worshipped as a part of it's own, but as a part of Nature and the Devine.
Most Wiccans/Pagans will tell you that what the worshipp really is about is the worship of life.
And life comes from nature.
And without Fire, Earth, Wind and Water, there would be no life.
We also believe there is a Devine who is also needed for life to exist, The Devine IS life.
And we're all a part of her*.
I hope that answered your question, if not... tell me and I'll try to explain better.
*(I call the devine her because it feels logical to me, Woman - Womb - Life - Devine... I just feel more comfortable calling The Devine "her/she")
Thunderstorm
15-04-03, 07:36
That's just horrible... and what we're seeing here folks is the actions of people in our 'enlightened' days.
It makes you wonder, doesn't it?
Love "SOME" of those traditonal Catholics.
Eowyn Note I said SOME so calm down.
Cut the bullshit, Perfectly Piper. It's abundantly clear that the only reason you posted that article was for the purpose of showing just how wronged wiccans are by the devilish Christians. Your use of bold and quotations highlights that. Please drop the subject, as all it seems to do is piss people off, as you yourself have claimed to have had happen to yourself. Enough talking about Wiccan being persecuted by Christians; that isn't even what this thread is about, and if it were, it's not a discussion that anyone would gain from. Cut it. Also, if you continue to spout "facts" about Christianity, and then refuse to cough up a source or further explanation, you might want to know how much of an ass it makes you look like. And it's impossible to carry on a conversation anywhere without responding to a particular person's post at one point or another. :rolleyes:
ZuZu, I'll do my best to ignore the fact that your post sounded like it could have come from the Innocent Witch dialogue section of a Charmed script. I do thank you for your response to my question, though.
As a Wiccan (you are a Wiccan, right? I just assumed), have you ever wondered if the point Eowyn brought up holds any relevance? "I think the worship of elemental spirits and or the elements themselves might have come from a need to worship something, but just not having information about other options"
It would make sense to me if I were a Wiccan, to look back objectively and see if this might be the case. I'd certainly have such questioning before chosing to practice and affiliate myself with a religion (I'm assuming that you chose this religion, and was not raised with it; could be wrong). Having the scientific facts there would make it impossible for me to worship the elements. What makes it easier to worship a sole creator, is that it makes more sense to me that someone else moved the planet to this perfect spot in the galaxy for life to thrive, than that the elements somehow held a conference one fateful day and decided it best to join forces and create life. I may be making more sense in my head, but there it is.
EowynHalliwell
15-04-03, 14:41
For someone who was raised Christian, you sure seem to have some mixed up ideas about it Perfectly Piper, and very little interest in a wonderful god. No one needs candles, chalices, chants, potions, symbols or the like to get in touch with God, who is the God of air, wind, fire, water. Here are a few of the websites I've found that I like that help explain Christianity:
A Slice of Infinity Archives (http://www.gospelcom.net/rzim/publications/slice_index.php)
Jack Hayford Ministries (www.livingway.org/)
Betty Eadie's Embraced by the Light (www.embracedby thelight.com/)
Betty Eadie is a wonderful woman who had a near-death experience and encountered Jesus. If you go to her website and are offended by pretty pictures of angels and the Jesus, you might want to put on dark glasses, because there is actually a picture of Betty, who is not Christ but a Christian, and some pictures of roses. I don't understand why anyone is so sensitive that they might be offended by pictures of angels or Jesus, when it seems to me that Wicca has all sorts of visual representations.
The article about Mr. Shilon does not prove much. The "Catholics" in the article are not practicing any thing that is encouraged by Christians. Jesus never advised stoning anyone, quite the opposite, so you can't say this is a Christian practice. The "Catholics" are not really Catholics at all, if they have mixed a Native American religion with their "Christianity". I am not sure what you are trying to prove with this article. Of course some people pretend to adopt Christianity so they can take advantage of people. If the "Catholics" in this article battle Evangelical Prostestants, then I think they are disobeying their own Pope, and can't really be called Catholics or Christians.
Perfectly Piper, it is you who should calm down and learn what you are talking about and READ what people have to say, so that you will not put words into other people's mouths and lie. The fact that you put up some of the links you did, proves you are ignoring what I have said time and again: you will always find people who claim to be Christian, but are not really. They are violent, hateful, prejudiced, selfish, lustful, nasty people.
I do admitt that i am one who helped turn this conversation into an all out battle. I do apologize to everyone who got on here and saw that. It was not my intention.
Apologize if you will, but you just seem to do the same dumb things over and over again, and you ought to know better. Nobody is accusing Wicca of being Satanism. Except Raynor, who is just repeating something he heard someone else said, I don't think he was claiming he had any personal experience of it. I will accept your apology when I believe you really mean it. Your silly little have a nice night, everyone, I didn't mean to offend anyone statements are like being handed a bowl of dogcrap with some sugar on it. The sugar makes it no more appealing, the crap is still crap, and that's a really foolish waste of sugar. Your sweet little act just seems like an act. You don't know too much about Wicca, everyone else here who is a Wiccan seems to know more. You know so little about Christianity, that I wonder exactly what your Christian upbringing consisted of. DO NOT EVER GIVE ME THAT CALM DOWN EOWYN crap ever again.
Anyone who wishes to learn more about St. Augustine could read "Confessions" by St. Augustine, and "City of God" by the same. I've read both of these and they are good, will tell you a lot more about St. Augustine than the above essay, which is okay, but I don't know how well it represents St. A., since it was written by someone else. St. A's books may even be online since they are in the public domain.
Originally posted by EowynHalliwell
"They" don't. Some of them do, usually because they have screwed up egos and believe they know it all. But not all Christians feel that way and some Christians claim they practice Wicca along with Christianity. So it doesn't do to generalize and lump all Christians together.
I know it sounds wrong, well a little bit to me, but I feel like I have earned the right to say that JUST ONCE. After many people saying that I'm evil and crap like that and generalize that Wicca practitioners are horrible people, I think I can be a bitch and say that once.
And besides, I'm feeling in a bad mood.
ONCE, people. I promise I will never do that again.
Okay, I think the feud needs to stop before the thread has to be closed down. I bet you guys we'd have one hell of a long-winded conversation in instant messaging. :wink:
EowynHalliwell
15-04-03, 23:25
Originally posted by Aradia
I know it sounds wrong, well a little bit to me, but I feel like I have earned the right to say that JUST ONCE. After many people saying that I'm evil and crap like that and generalize that Wicca practitioners are horrible people, I think I can be a bitch and say that once.
And besides, I'm feeling in a bad mood.
ONCE, people. I promise I will never do that again.
Aradia, you have a perfect right to say what you said, I think your account of what happened sounds accurate, you don't seem to be making it up, you do have a right to say what you said. I just wanted to point out that some Christians are that way, shallow and judgemental, and I may have sounded a bit defensive when I said don't lump all Christians together.
I just say that because I know Christians who actually do what they are supposed to do and do it happily, and care about people and they more like feel sorry for Pagans because they think Pagans have been hoodwinked, but they try to be nice about it.
Again I say, if you've been kicked in the pants for no good reason, you have a good reason to complain.
I know the Eowyn vs. You-know-who nastiness must be hard on everyone, but this is not the first thread in which she has chosen to harass me and twist around what I said. I have never felt such undeserved nastiness from anyone on this board. Yes, this is TS3 where we are allowed to speak our opinion, but if your opinion goes like this: "Eowyn is telling everyone they can't use candles and potions and etc. in their worship," well that is an 'opinion' that you should be able to defend with facts.
I have never said that chants, potions, spells, candles, herbal mixtures, worship of elemental spirits are evil. I said Jesus Christ tells us that we do not need these mediums to reach God or make him hear us. I never have told anyone not to use these things, or called them evil, and it is not fair for anyone to say, "in my opinion, Eowyn persecutes people who want to have these things."
I grew up Roman Catholic, because my parents chose that for me and I really didn't have a choice. I was told we had to say certain prayers at certain times, refrain from eating certain things on certain days, kneel before priests and ask their forgiveness, all sorts of dogma like this. We had religious necklaces called scapulars that we had to wear, and beads we had to pray with. Girls had to cover their shameful female hair in church. I think any religion that tells you you have to perform rituals and such is misguided, and it does not acknowledge near enough that God loves us unconditionally. But some Catholics and other Christians let me know that rituals and such are far down the list of concerns as far as what God requires of us. First s/he wants us to grow more like her/him. S/he wants us to know the correct course for humans to grow in, for each individual to grow in. I think any religion that tells you that you have to study ascetic practices to learn sacred mysteries is bogus, whether the religion claims to be Christian, Wiccan or whatever. God is learned of through simple practices.
Well, this is the Christianity vs. Wicca thread, so I guess I'll let off here. I'd like to apologize for not thinking somehow of a much QUICKER way to let you-know-who know that I do not appreciate her skimming my posts and twisting what I said around, putting words in my mouth and giving really lame proofs of what she claims Christians have stolen from Pagans or Wiccans.
What follows here is for folks who are interested in the argument, and it's in spoiler tags for those who just wish to skip the whole thing: (here's hoping spoiler tags work in this forum)
I stand by my statement that Christians did not steal bunny rabbits, Dec. 25, or any of those other things. They are not Christian practices, and many Christians consider them part of American or European culture. Many Christians speak English but English is not a Christian lanquage. Many Christians use bread in their sacraments, but bread is not a Christian food. Christians didn't steal the English lanquage or bread. Many Christians don't celebrate Christmas, they celebrate Three Kings Day. Many Christians celebrate a holiday called All Saints Day and one called All Souls Day, one is on a day called by Samhain and by others Halloween. The other Christian holiday is the day after. It may be that when some Pagans converted to Christianity, they wanted to keep that holiday and so just gave it a Christian name and a Christian theme. The Christian theme has nothing to do with appeasing evil spirits or making human sacrifices, as the old Pagan holiday was dedicated to. It's a little unclear whether Pagans wanted to clean up a rather nasty tradition, or whether the Pagans didn't want to give up their old holiday completely. Either way, it's a lovely pair of holidays with good intentions, but Jesus never declared any day sacred, this is all humans wanting to have tradition. If Pagans want to convert to Christianity, they are no longer Pagans, and Christians did not steal Pagans unless the conversion was involuntary. The same with a Pagan holiday. If some Pagans want to convert their holiday to a Christian holiday, it's not stolen, it's their right to have a new holiday. I explained the origin of Christmas twice, it was only done because it was the best time of year to have a major celebration in the early Church. Christians did not mean it to be a substitute for Saturnalia, or convert a non-Christian Holiday to a Christian one.
Thunderstorm
16-04-03, 02:19
I'm gonna make one thing clear here.
I was raised as a Christian.
I am now a Wiccan.
I worship the Devine, which I, like many other Wiccans, believe is the ultimate life force.
Thus... she is the nature, the elements... everything.
I do not worship the elements, just like that.
Many Wiccans also believe that this Devine can look different to please the individual.
Thus... I believe that all Gods and Goddesses are one and the same.
Invincible121
16-04-03, 19:31
Posted on behalf of Paige
"
I'm starting to wonder if Wiccans/Pagans (at least on this board) can have their faith questioned without interperting it as condemnation and/or persecution. I asked for an explanation on why W/Ps worshiped the elements that are just there, since I haven't studied it, and don't know. Instead of an answer, I was told that since I don't study it, I wouldn't understand.
Wiccans/Pagans worship the elements as that's what we see god through. We see the god and goddess (or lord and lady), through everything. Work that we do is work they do through us, and so on, get it?
People who tell you you wouldn't understand it prolly don't know much and are very ignorant themselves"
Prue's Magic
16-04-03, 19:46
Originally posted by NF
Isn't that just adorable?
Anyway...
I actually somewhat agree with this statement. Although "EVIL EVIL EVIL," would never be a term I'd use, because it makes the writer look stupid, I do think it's foolish to play around with magic, and especially if the reason you're doing it is because of some television show. These powers don't exist, yet some people think they do.
Magic is (to quote a Charmed episode) all around us. Nature is Magic...the herbs, the plants, Magic is what you see in Nature on a cool morning in the woods....not all is "Black Magic"
Originally posted by EowynHalliwell
Aradia, you have a perfect right to say what you said, I think your account of what happened sounds accurate, you don't seem to be making it up, you do have a right to say what you said. I just wanted to point out that some Christians are that way, shallow and judgemental, and I may have sounded a bit defensive when I said don't lump all Christians together.
Thank you.
EowynHalliwell
16-04-03, 22:58
Thanks Aradia. I say again that anyone who has had a lousy time is allowed to express it. Excuse me for giving advice, but the best thing is to get the resentment out and learn to avoid abusive people who say they represent the God of Love. Avoiding wasn't the only answer for me, because I was really hurt by the hypocrites. I learned that people who condemn others without enough justification condemn themselves. Part of my cure from the bad memories was to remember the Christians in my life who actually did what they were supposed to do, praised me when I did well, and who disciplined me when I did something that would hurt myself or others. Excuse me, there are people who are not Christians who have done the same. Forgive the lengthy preaching, sometimes life hurts and you need some advice for the pain. Oy, Aradia, I just reread your post and I think you said you weren't even sure if these people were Christians. Well, if they were, they were double jerks. If they weren't, they were still jerks, I think.
I would just like y'all to know that Perfectly Piper and I have exchanged lengthy PMs on our discussion in this thread, and have pretty much agreed to agree to disagree for the moment and avoid getting into it with each other again. I feel much better about the whole thing now, and PP has been fairly nice about the whole thing. As well, I think she more or less made the first move in that direction. So there. I don't like humbling myself too much, so I'll shut up.
Umm, I just wanted say something to the moderator... I read what you said. And the fact is, psychic <preminitions,etc> TK, do exist..is real. Not at the high paced level as the show, portrays it, but it is real. :flo:
:eyes: As far as Christianity vs. Wicca.. They are very similar, for reasons know to those who know the history. But yes they have each their own, differences as well.
:elaugh:
But she was right when she said, that Wicca is Polytheism. :roll:
See, the problem is you can't really get people to believe that on a board such as this charmed one. Especially since there are Morons who think they actually can do that based on the show. Hence why it's best not to mention anything about any form of powers you have a board such as this. You generally (from my point of veiw) get clustered into the catergory as the morons who believe that by waving your hand you can open up doors and shiz :$
Umm, I just wanted say something to the moderator... I read what you said. And the fact is, psychic <preminitions,etc> TK, do exist..is real. Not at the high paced level as the show, portrays it, but it is real.
I assume you're referring to me? And, see, that statement is really just an opinion. Since it hasn't been proven, it's still technically a theory. If you believe in premonitions and telekinesis (hell, even temporal status), that's fine. Just don't go stating it as though it's some sort of commonly-known fact, backed by some sort of reliable source that I should be checking before I post to the contrary.
And, if you yourself have these special abilities, kudos. However (as Paige implied), those who don't have them and claim to have them or believe in them for, well, stupid reasons... they pretty much ruin your chances of ever convincing a nonbeliever otherwise.
I'm not out to convince others. I am just stating what I do know.
:wink: :eyes: :smile:
It's true about Wicca not been so different too Christian. I suppose alot of Christians must do stuff like make their own sanctuary than maybe pray too God. But c'mon, how on earth can you be both religions at the same time? If your christian your christian. If your wicca your wicca. Geeez, it's so stupid when people say their half/half.
Glamour
--------------------
Sorry, bout the not so calm message, didn't see yours.:eyes:
Happy Easter too you too.
Glamour
Glamour, indeed one is either Christain or Wiccan/Pagan. Although some ppl. are torn between the two, and think they can blend the two. It just cannot be done. They may think they can..they may believe so wholeheartedly. It is just an oxymoron.
This was me merely making a point. "No Worries." :flo:
It depends on what you mean when you say that the people are torn between the two.
To me, that would mean that they're a practicing Wiccan that celebrates the Sabbats but still goes to church and prays.
I practice Wicca, but I still celebrate Easter & Christmas, but not going to church and all that jazz. What would you say about that?
EowynHalliwell
22-04-03, 23:12
I would be curious as to why you go to Christmas and Easter celebrations, and only those, and I'd be curious as to whether you study the Christian Bible, seek the presence of Jesus Christ. That sort of thing. To me, studying the Bible is part of the practice of the spirituality of Christianity.
To me, the lack of Bible study doesn't necessarily keep you from being a Christian, just as there are some people who seem to read the Bible without ceasing (usually in public), but they just seem to be putting up a facade.
But that's just kind of idle curiosity. I had a friend who was raised in Catholic schools as I was, and she seemed to be a fairly nice person, she seemed to get interested in Christianity, but it only seemed like she wanted to find excuses to justify the--excuse me--sins she wanted to commit. I mean she was a fair bit of a slut. I'm not pretending to be a saint here, but I figure, why get into this demanding spirituality and not show any concern for the rules. To me she seemed like the most lukewarm person.
I don't think I'm being too judgemental, because I knew her for years, and I finally realized she just seemed to devote herself to religion by hanging around in church and being friends with other (lukewarm) Catholics. She was really someone who had nothing else to do, I think. She wasn't traditionally religious and serious and spiritual, and she wasn't a repentant sinner. Neither hot nor cold but lukewarm, I think is the phrase.
She studied astrology, never seemed to feel any guilt over this, also never really made anything of it, never seemed to learn from it. A weird chick.
On to Wicca, what I've learned in this thread is that people seem to have really different opinions on what the basic beliefs are, and what constitutes the practice of Wicca. I read the checklist, but when it comes to practicing, Wiccans are kind of like Christians in that they have various degrees of depth or seriousness. I'm not criticising, because it seems all religions are kind of like that. Christianity's been around longer than Wicca, not as long as Paganism. But Christianity seems to have a lot of structure. Of course, that's from what I've seen, and everyone sees it differently.
As Perfectly Piper said to me a short time ago in a PM, that feeling passionate about what your spirituality is, is important, even when people collide. I think that's pretty much the gist of part of one PM. I think that's true too. If you take your life in your hands and seek to live it in full, and keep looking and growing, you'll find the best life has to offer.
Okay, at this point I've gotten into the overly sweet, but I suppose better that than the overly bitter.
Aradia, that would depend ? I mean I don't see how one would celebrate Sabbats of Eostera & Yule....along with Christmas & Easter. If you could explain a bit further, I could make a better statement. Th 4 holidays combined: 2 sabbats & 2 holidays...
they may be similar yes, but not exactly the same. This is merely my opinion. But more info could help me understand. Thanks :flo:
I meant that I celebrated them in the erm, unreligious way. Meaning, I have a Christmas tree and I open gifts with my family and have Easter egg hunts with my little niece & nephew. I don't go to midnight mass and stuff like that.
I figured that is what you meant, but had to know.:tongue1:
Originally posted by Paige
Also....do you know even Christians do basic magick? Wiccans/Pagans (most....some don't ;)) do rituals (which are similar to Christian Prayers, only to different Gods/Goddesses) to ask for things, like something that is lost, or to protect a loved one, ect. Christians do the same thing. They pray to God asking for help, support and protection.
It's completely different! Some Christians may take part in rituals, but in general they are, as I understand to create the proper atmosphere for their prayer. Yes, Christians pray for help, support and protection, but that's not magic. That's...just asking for help, but unlike wicca, not getting help yourself. In christianity, it's up to God to decide whether or not that someone gets what they pray for, whereas in Wicca, you basically do the spell, and (if you think that stuff works) it just happens. I think. Feel free to correct me.
The Christian festival of 'easter' is actually based on a Pagan one about the rebirth of spring, hence the egg. There are alot of Christian ideas from lots of other religions, christianity is kind of a mish-mash. By the way, no insults intended!!!!!
EowynHalliwell
01-05-03, 16:50
The term "Easter" is the name of a Pagan or Celtic goddess, and does not have much to do with the Christian holiday that celebrates the resurrection of Christ from the dead. I don't know whether or not one or more ancient religions celebrated a holiday based on the timing of Christian Easter, this is coincidence and that from the Christian point of view, the term "Easter" is a misnomer. Christian Easter does not celebrate the Goddess of the Dawn or Spring, or the timing of the vernal equinox.
The timing of Christian Easter is based around Jewish Passover, since the time of Jesus's Christ's crucifixion is well documented to be around the time of Passover. Actually, this has already been discussed in this thread, as have some other claims that Christianity bases it's holidays on Pagan ones.
The egg is not considered a symbol of Christ by any Christian denomination that I know of.
There has been a huge discussion in this thread about the real or imagined influences of other religions on Christianity. Discussion and argument, as a matter of fact. Many things that people claim Christianity has borrowed from other religions are things that Christians don't even consider Christian at all, such as pumpkins, rabbits, eggs, "Christmas trees", etc. If you are interested, you might like to wade through the thread from the beginning.
Phrooey, spells don't just happen. It is a bit more in depth. :roll:
Miow!!!!!! EowynHalliwell, retract your claws!!!!! Calm down, i was just saying, this thread is actually bugging me, people should come on and say there beliefs and move on, it's not a battle here people!!! Chill, each to their own!!! :corky: CHEEEESSYYYY MUCH????? :eyes1:
EowynHalliwell
02-05-03, 12:59
Guess I don't get the cheesy reference. I certainly don't think Christianity and all religions are the mish-mash you think they are. I think I'm allowed to express my ideas and speak the facts as best I know them. You could consider calming down yourself, and if this thread is bugging you, why didn't you say so and why did you jump into the discussion? If it bugs you, don't post in here.
As i said, each person is allowed to have and voice their own opinions, I was just stating that i thought it shouldn't be an argument about peoples religions. It is fair enough for you to say what you feel, and you seem to know alot about what you are talking about, but there is still no reason to force feed it to people.
And by the way, this isn't the first time i nave posted my view on this thread, so i didn't jump into the conversation, "If you are interested, you might like to wade through the thread from the beginning."
EowynHalliwell
02-05-03, 17:57
You are obviously stating your opinions just fine, and nobody is hassling you or calling you names. You stated your opinion, I stated mine, if you don't like hearing facts, I don't know why you're here. My suggestion that you "wade through the thread" was due to the fact that you are digging up something that's been discussed before in this thread before, and you seem to have taken no notice of it.
Why you think the Christian celebration of Easter is based on Pagan beliefs or practice is beyond me. Perhaps you would like to give an explanation. I gave my reasons for believing that Christian Easter is based on Christ's resurrection. Perhaps you would like to give your reasons for believing as you do. I'm sure not seeing it, I'm seeing a come-on for an argument from you. If you want peace Paz, don't tell me "VERY CHEESY" or "retract your claws" just because I stated my opinion and explained why I think what I think.
I'm not saying they jusy happen ( if I did, sorry), just that it's pretty much up to you whether or not they happen. As far as Iknow, yeh, you might get a little help, but you choose whether or not its the right thing to do, and whether or not it should happen.
Btw, my name is PROO-EY, not Phroo-ey.
Not to be bitchy or anything, but if it's just "as far as you know," which I take that it means you don't know too much about the topic, you should research a bit more before you say anything.
I haven't the slightest if you are right. I could re-read your post and check to see if you are indeed right, but alas, I am too tired.
I just recently started to study Wicca, so I haven't had many experiences.
But I do have a tip for people who can't sleep or have nightmares.
Put an amethys under your pillow.
It really helps!
Yes, it does!
and in response to
#1 Phoebe
I agree with Rose (Paige... I'm so sorry) I meen Paige, come back when you've read more about wicca and pagans.
P.S I'm so NOT evil... And SO tired of hearing it.
- Zuzu
-----
Me too.
Evil, or any form of it, is inside everyone. It's only those who let it out that are seen as evil people. On the flipside, extreme good is inside all of us too, and again, it's those who let it out that are seen as good people.
So to say thet magick is evil, that's rediculous.
It's the evil people who use it that give it a bad name.
It's the good people that use it that give it a good name.
Society prefers to remember bad stuff. So it gets a bad name.
-------
Dude. You just said Jesus was a magician. What kind of crack are you smoking? Christianity and Wicca are two completely different religions, so comparing made-up similarities might not help you prove whatever point it is you're trying to get across.
- Head moderator
Vexed
Hehe. You sound like a funky guy.
Anyway, if you use magick, you'll know it's potential to cause harm. On the opposite, you'll know it's potential to do good.
That's a definition you make for yourselves.
Many happy blessings...all of you, whatever you believe.
All I know, is I'm a pagan and I'm happy.
I've never killed or harmed, and I'd never use magick to do so.
Originally posted by Aradia
Not to be bitchy or anything, but if it's just "as far as you know," which I take that it means you don't know too much about the topic, you should research a bit more before you say anything.
I haven't the slightest if you are right. I could re-read your post and check to see if you are indeed right, but alas, I am too tired.
I take you're it talking to me right? Sorry, it's just you didn't put my name...
If you were, then I'm sorry if it sounded like I hadn't done much research, because beleive me, I have. When I said 'as far as I know', i meant that it was my opinion; that from what I have learnt about this subject, this is what I can see might be plausible.
Sorry for any misunderstandings.
Yeah, I was talking to you, Proo-ey. Sorry 'bout that.
-------
I asked one of the people in my class, who is pretty religious, what she thought of Wicca and Witchcraft. You know, just to see what she would say.
She told me that Wicca is the devil's work and that I should never do anything that includes Satan.
[Sigh.]
Just thought that I might share.
I wonder if magic doesn't work after all. It just seems hard to know where the results would come from. The witch trials were horrifying. Jesus miracles are hard to explain but he had the power to do them in any case. The Cath Ch give me so much head ache, Mary, crusades, saints, paying for forgiveness of sins, priests not marrying etc.
I just think think Charmed is really entertaining and I love studying the interaction between the sisters.
Phew! I'm new to this board and honestly, this took me HOURS to read through all these posts. And I didn't actually get through all of them, but I tried. Some were so long. You all have amazing things to contribute and you all have good arguments. Honestly, I think religious arguments are a little silly. Christians will never convert Wiccans and Wiccans will never convert Christians. Along with other religions. We can't change the way people thing or what they believe, no matter how much we try. I know that I could probably never make a Christian understand what it is to be Wiccan and why I believe what I do. It would just be too hard. Christians believe something completely different from what Wiccans do. But we're all humans and we all have faith, and that connects us somehow. *sparkles* Now, can't we all just get along? :flo:
EowynHalliwell
15-05-03, 12:14
Thanks, PP :D -again, I'm sorry I did get stinky. I hope I woud never quite do it the same way again, hope I learned from experience.
Btw, I hope I never try to convert anyone, that's God's job and maybe God has a reason for leaving people the way they are.
But I guess I did want to clear up some misconceptions a bit. I know from my own experience and from knowing other people that sometimes those supposed "religious practices" can get confused with spirituality. Pure Christianity does not accept dogma as a religious practice, though it will often tolerate it for the sake of the "small in faith" or some other purpose.
:crazy: Sorry the posts got so long, but in case anyone is interested in that sort of thing, and likes the long posts, well we've got it all right here. Heh, heh, heh. :crazy:
We can't change the way people thing or what they believe, no matter how much we try. I know that I could probably never make a Christian understand what it is to be Wiccan and why I believe what I do. It would just be too hard. Christians believe something completely different from what Wiccans do. But we're all humans and we all have faith, and that connects us somehow. *sparkles* Now, can't we all just get along?
True, we shouldn't cut throats out over any discussion, but getting the dicussion out of the stystem is always a good thing, right?
Re: Can't we all just get along?
No. Where's the fun in that?
Mmm jumping into a tensish discussion with no real knowledge...
The thing with the eggs is, over here in the UK anyway, is that people actually roll hard-boiled eggs down hills after painting them. Now why this was fun, AP, I'll never know, but it was okay? As a matter of fact I witnessed my little cousins doing it a month ago. Hooray. They then proceeded to throw them at me before I turned them against one another. *smiles* Good times.
But I thought the rolling thing was symbolisation of Jesus rolling the rock away from the mouth of that cave where he was chucked for three days or something. Maybe not, but I just thought I'd mention it as seemingly the Americums hunt for eggs rather than roll them. Which is clearly only half as fun.
Clearly KT.
I asked some...people, and you are completely right KT, that is exactly what it means. But I think it was only recently (as in no more than a couple o' hundred years) that people started doing that.
Strangely enough, I have never met anyone who enjoys egg rolling. :roll: I and I didn't even hear of it until I started going to a church school.
AdamJ, you mention about magic...not knowing whereit comes from.. is that more why you don't believe..? It is your right not to beieve in magic... Not everyone does.
Charmed is a good entertainment tv-show... Along with the characters... how we get caught up in the show..
Also, I know some people have a problem with the sisters, being "so-called" wiccans.. where Piper still wears a cross... < just a thought> hehe :D
The girls don't seem very Wiccan. *laughs* Everytime they have another witch/Wiccan on the show, that person knows more about things than they do. They're just good at vanquishing evil. :)
EowynHalliwell
15-05-03, 22:03
Hehe, too true. The non-Halliwell witches always seem to be more authentically Wiccan. I think the powers of the COs have not much to do with real life Wicca. I mean, Levitation? Orbing? Freezing people?
In answer to Adamj, I think things get done sometimes just because we want them to be done badly enough. Magic, prayer, whatever. Sometimes desire fuels accomplishment.
EowynHalliwell
16-05-03, 00:20
Sometimes I will things to happen and they don't. I always wonder whether I'm punishing myself for something, or if there is really good reason that I didn't get what I want, and I'm just not seeing it yet.
I think this when I think about magic: I'd probably only do it for power or to get what I want. This is only because deep down, I believe in prayer, so only if God didn't give me what I wanted, would I resort to other means. Maybe. But I don't necessarily think that about any practioner of magic, since we certainly aren't all raised the same.
If you wants something bad enough and think, pray, meditate......ect You will, will it to happen. No not nessacerly, power of positive thinking is what my mother always said. I am not saying that prayer and meditation and even spells do not work, all I am saying is that it is also positive thinking and having confidence in yourself. - Perfectly Piper
Anyway, I hope to find out the reason why not, if I don't get what I want!
EowynHalliwell
18-05-03, 13:03
[Thanks, it's by a member here, Martin ("Gotta Love Piper", something like that). I just took it from his website, since he okayed it. I love it too.(Vapournet)]
That makes me think that in Christianity, asking repeatedly and asking with other believers is supposed to help. The quote is something like: 'whatsoever you ask in my name, it shall be done,' or 'where two or more of you ask in my name, it shall be done'. JC gives a parable about an old widow who got cheated out of some money. She appeals to a judge who initially doesn't do anything, but after she keeps asking and asking, says he's tired of her asking, and helps her just to get rid of her.
One of my keywords for living in the past few years is "Persistence". Go ahead laugh, but I read Harrison Ford say that in Movieline a few years ago, when asked about his success in the entertainment field. He just said, "persistence". It's simple and it works for me.
/me starts a rumor just to stay on-topic:
Uh, and I heard Harrison Ford is one of those Wiccan Jesuit-Mormons. Uh-huh, yeah, there's the ticket.
Originally posted by Aradia
Yeah, I was talking to you, Proo-ey. Sorry 'bout that.
-------
I asked one of the people in my class, who is pretty religious, what she thought of Wicca and Witchcraft. You know, just to see what she would say.
She told me that Wicca is the devil's work and that I should never do anything that includes Satan.
[Sigh.]
Just thought that I might share.
But you don't believe that, do you?
I mean, your username is that of a wiccan goddess, you know, that?
Wicca is neither black nor white.
If you're a good person, you will use wicca for good.
If not, you disgrace wicca by even talking about it.
Love.
I know where you're coming from.
But magick is the term used for things that happen with no scientific explanation. Like miracles.
I can only tell you that it's real, if you don't believe that, it's on you. But I don't wan to force anything on anyone. So if it's not for you, I won't have any less respect for you, nor think you're dumb.
Peace.
Originally posted by Lairiciin
But you don't believe that, do you?
I mean, your username is that of a wiccan goddess, you know, that?
Of course I don't believe it! As stated earlier in this thread and around the "Name" thread, I am Wiccan.
And yes, I know it's the name of a witch. That's why I picked it as my craft/user name.
...heh.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid63/p052f8b60530ff8038458f4c2cb655cd4/fc0bf661.jpg
Holly and her cat,
Rose and her dog...
Alyssa and...her... ...chimpanzee!
hoohehaha..
EowynHalliwell
18-06-03, 00:50
Lairiciin! Thanks, but you should maybe post that in the banner posting thread or PM me or something. ( Contrary to popular belief this is not my personal conversation thread! ) But thank you anyway.
Well, since it's the C vs. W thread, and I'm in it now, I thought I'd mention something I saw while looking for something else. I saw at a site called Occultopedia that many people are attracted to Wicca because it is a healing religion. I hadn't actually heard it put quite this way, but come to think of it, many people are attracted to various religions because they are in need of solutions to problems, from physical and mental ailments to relationship problems.
I really haven't heard much about the healing aspect of Wicca.
Thunderstorm
19-06-03, 07:35
EowynHalliwell: Wiccanism is basically about healing, so I am surprised that it hasn't been mentioned in almost every post that's been made.
Silly us...
Anyways, a lot of Wiccans I know usually found this wonderful religion after a long time of depression and pain, and found that this religion is extremely healing and builds you up in a wonderful way, leaving you filled with so much more love then you've ever been filled with before, and to me... that's exactly what religion should do to you.
It also makes you stronger, so that you can fight through all problems that might come from life, and the problems that comes from your decition to be a dedicated Wiccan.
because everything isn't all happy and bright.
You also learn to accept the darker aspects of life.
Which is something that is necessary for balance.
:pounding: blessings, light and love... :pounding:
EowynHalliwell
19-06-03, 21:34
[To get this out of the way, because I just have to say it: Wow! Nice new name and fantastic banner! You should see it in Onyx.]
I'm not that surprised, because I've only found one reference to it being a healing religion. Aren't they all, though. I doubt I'd find any enlightment in it, though. I've tried a lot of things that people say are so wonderful, when they were recommended to me, only to find that whatever it is, it usually works for that person, not me. Christianity does a better job for me than an impersonal religion.
Sometimes there are things a person just doesn't believe in, and and sometimes you just find some things believable. I think if I had been brought up devoid of Christianity, something like Wicca might really catch my mind. I just found too much truth in applying the Christian teachings.
Thunderstorm
20-06-03, 09:32
[thank you so much... I am quite happy with it myself]
I am a firm believer in whatever works for you isd right.
I believe that all religions ultimately leads to the one thruth, but as all people are different, we all need different ways to get us there.
(an exception of religions would be the now oh-so-common money worship)
I can compleately understand people who are Christian, Jews, Hindus, Muslims... you name it!
I think all religions are healing in their own way...
All be blessed, and blessed be all...
EowynHalliwell
13-10-03, 09:25
PhoenixFyre's comment in the Why People Think Spells Work (][b) thread:
OK, first off all, [b]EowynHalliwell, you keep accusing me of dodging my own information and in some cases, even seem to imply that I don't know what I'm talking about.
First of all, yes, I do know what I'm talking about. I'm using examples of what I have seen. Almost all of my mother's side of the family are Catholic and when I've had to go to church with them, they stop by a section of a church, light a candle and ask for something. Once I heard my uncle ask that he get the job he applied for. Another time my grandmother asked for her aunt to get well because she was very sick.
That is what Wiccans call candle magick. Whether they recognize it under that name or not, its the same thing we do. That doesn't necessarily mean that my family is using magick or doing something "wrong." But that's what I call it.
Next, Freeze. First of all, I'm realize the whole "pyre" thing. How can you expect me to rant on about all these things and not know something as simple as that? But a majority of the time, when I register, I register under PhoenixFyre because usually PhoenixFire has already been taked. Fyre is just an alternative way of spelling it that I use for my screen names. At least EowynHalliwell got it, LOL.
Furthermore, I didn't say that the Christian religion copies any of the Pagan ones. I said that a lot of it stems from the Pagan ones. I didn't mean to say that Christians took everything and slapped a brand new name on it. When a majority of the people who convert to a different religion or way of thinking, they need a way of personalizing it to make it more comfortable. So, they took some of their older ways of doing things and included them within their new form of worship.
But I do agree that this doesn't have anything to do with Why Spells Work. I did include that in one of my previous posts, but a few people got me off topic. But I do apologize if what I'm doing is defined as spam to you.
Once again, back to Eowyn, not many Catholics pray to Mary or to some of the Saints. But during the Great Schism when a many Catholics began breaking off and forming their own different types of religions, they included Saints and Mary in many of their prayers. Futhermore, I think its a tad bit condescending to think that Wiccans and their practices are "backwards."
Maybe I didn't word my previous post too well. Instead of saying "many" in some cases, I should have said "some." All I was trying to point out is that many people who think that myself and some of the other people of my religion are completely inbalanced for what we do sometimes do some of the same things, just in different, and in some cases, simplified, forms.
Taking an old form of worship, including candle magick, and putting it in a Christian setting is not Christianity. Christ warned against doing this. Christianity does not stem from Pagan beliefs, and serious and honest Christians don't use Pagan traditions to make people feel at home. Contact with Jesus and other Christians, and seeing God in our surroundings is what makes Christians feel comfortable.
Lighting candles is not required to make prayer work, therefore it is not part of the Christian spirituality. There is no part of the Christian Gospel that advises the use of candles in any way.
I grew up Catholic, and I read the Gospels when I became an adult, and saw the many ways in which Catholocism goes against Christian belief. This use of candles no more makes Christianity a Christian religion than using Christmas lights on front porch does. It may mean the individual who decides to put his/her faith in candle magic is a Pagan who does not know Christ. Many persons who consider themselves Catholic do not know God.
I did not exactly mean to be condescending in saying Christians using Pagan practices are going backward. I did not mean Pagans or Wiccans have a backward religion. I mean Christians who practice old religions and call it Christian are going backward in their spirituality. Contact with God does not rely on candles or diagrams any more than it relies on a clean pair of socks or wearing a nice hat. These may make you feel better, but it won't make much difference to God.
And as I pointed out in the other thread, Chiristianity does NOT stem from Paganism. Christianity came from Christ, and does not have the God and Goddess, or powers of wind, fire, water or earth. It does not disregard the fact that other spirits exist, and that many have control over people and regions, but it does not need to base itself in any of these, or use them in any way.
SylverDragyn
29-10-03, 08:04
Merry Meet,
Well I am a Christian "Witch". You can mix the two,it is very easy.
How? Well not all Wiccans believe in more than one God or Goddess,some believe in one God and one Goddess. And if you research Christian bibles you will notice that there is a spirit called Sophia. the spirit of wisdom,you can think of her as the Goddess. Or Mary the Virgin mother,Mary Magadlene(who was actually believed to the wife of Jesus. And I believe there is another one. But you can also believe the Holy Spirit as kinda like a Goddess.
As for praying to "gods",most Christians would do the same for saints and angels. So you can replace them with the gods and goddesses.
And as for the Summerland and Heaven,not all Wiccans believe in reincarnation and not all christians believe in eternal life after death in heaven. So in order to be a ChristianWitch you can believe either. Most likely heaven though.
And all about the famous "Thou shall not suffer a witch to live" Well actually,witch was the english term for the Hebrew word. But when you actually interpret it..it means poisoner. Which could possibly mean black magick..or someone who poisons people. There really isn't anything in the bible that really translates to "witch". So does this mean Christians can practice magick? Of course we can..Jesus did it by calling apon the Holy Spirit,and like I said before can be known as a Goddess,which is what witches do! Does this mean Jesus was a witch? Who knows...
And in order to be a Christian Witch you must:
Believe Jesus died for you
Follow the ten commandments
Follow the wiccan reide.
This is my religion kinda. I am Christian who practices the Wicca faith. I love God,Jesus,and the Mother..whomever she may be. I do celebrate Wicca sabbats,and christian holidays. Blessed be :)
EowynHalliwell
29-10-03, 11:54
I have read the Bible several times, and I sure don't remember a spirit called Sophia, let alone that she is of any importance in worshipping God. I have never ever in my life heard of any spirit or goddess named Sophia mentioned in any Christian church, sermon or casual conversation between Christians. I don't dispute such a person or being may exist or be believed to, but she's not part of Christian spirituality or religion.
A few Christans pray to saints for help, and trust angels to help them too, but they don't replace them with gods or goddesses. Gods and/or goddesses are not part of the Christian philosophy, since there are no other gods than God. Saint and angel worship are not really part of Christianity, since every Christian should be a saint himself/herself, but it is an understandable mistake by people who have been misled. Often people who do this are very good people, but that doesn't make the practice is a good one.
I have never seen any evidence of Jesus having a wife, and since he espoused celibacy, I can't figure out why he would have a wife. I think this "marriage to Magdalene" is just speculation from people who don't understand Jesus or the Scriptures, and who probably can't understand that some people are born to be celibate.
All Christians believe in eternal life. There may be some odd isolated branch that somehow missed out on this teaching, but this is one of the basic teachings of Christ, that those who trust in God to save them will spend eternity with God.
There has been a discussion about Bible terminology in the Christian Witchcraft thread about the term witch, and I had been informed by a Christian that the word pharmakia, which is sometimes translated as witch, actually refers to drug abusers who use drugs to open their consciousness to spirit familiars. Of course poisoning is against Christianity because it is an act of murder and destruction. But Jesus never taught his followers any spells, incantations, or told them to use cauldrons, chalices, athame or any of the other tools of witchcraft.
I don't remember any accounts of Jesus calling on the Holy Spirit, and would be interested to find what Gospel this comes from.
The Holy Spirit is regarded by some to be a feminine spirit, but just because this Holy Spirit is feminine and one with God, does not make her the same as the Goddess of Wiccan tradition.
I think it's not a good idea to mix Christianity with Wicca, which is not something recommended by the Bible or by Christians. Yes there are some people who regard themselves Christians who will tell you all sorts of lies about what is supposedly recommended or allowed by God, but you have to see through these people.
SylverDragyn
29-10-03, 12:40
I have read the Bible several times, and I sure don't remember a spirit called Sophia, let alone that she is of any importance in worshipping God. I have never ever in my life heard of any spirit or goddess named Sophia mentioned in any Christian church, sermon or casual conversation between Christians. I don't dispute such a person or being may exist or be believed to, but she's not part of Christian spirituality or religion.
A few Christans pray to saints for help, and trust angels to help them too, but they don't replace them with gods or goddesses. Gods and/or goddesses are not part of the Christian philosophy, since there are no other gods than God. Saint and angel worship are not really part of Christianity, since every Christian should be a saint himself/herself, but it is an understandable mistake by people who have been misled. Often people who do this are very good people, but that doesn't make the practice is a good one.
I have never seen any evidence of Jesus having a wife, and since he espoused celibacy, I can't figure out why he would have a wife. I think this "marriage to Magdalene" is just speculation from people who don't understand Jesus or the Scriptures, and who probably can't understand that some people are born to be celibate.
All Christians believe in eternal life. There may be some odd isolated branch that somehow missed out on this teaching, but this is one of the basic teachings of Christ, that those who trust in God to save them will spend eternity with God.
There has been a discussion about Bible terminology in the Christian Witchcraft thread about the term witch, and I had been informed by a Christian that the word pharmakia, which is sometimes translated as witch, actually refers to drug abusers who use drugs to open their consciousness to spirit familiars. Of course poisoning is against Christianity because it is an act of murder and destruction. But Jesus never taught his followers any spells, incantations, or told them to use cauldrons, chalices, athame or any of the other tools of witchcraft.
I don't remember any accounts of Jesus calling on the Holy Spirit, and would be interested to find what Gospel this comes from.
The Holy Spirit is regarded by some to be a feminine spirit, but just because this Holy Spirit is feminine and one with God, does not make her the same as the Goddess of Wiccan tradition.
I think it's not a good idea to mix Christianity with Wicca, which is not something recommended by the Bible or by Christians. Yes there are some people who regard themselves Christians who will tell you all sorts of lies about what is supposedly recommended or allowed by God, but you have to see through these people.
Sophia is in the Book of King Solomon.
And you seem to be missing the point,you can replace them for gods and goddesses. Instead of praying to gods you can pray to saints during spells.
The Magdalene wife thing was a theory I heard of,not what I believe.
And no,not all Christians do. Some believe the "born again" thing literally means reincarnation. I'm not sure who they are but they are Christians. I don't know why they think that though,but my old friend believed this.
I have read somewhere about people of the bible using magickal items of some sort..
ok,found it. this is what I found:
'While the Old Testament prohibits the practice of magic or presents
it negatively in a number of places, it also has "neutral or
positive references to a wide range of magical and divinatory
practices."
(Joanne Kuemmerlin-McLean, "Magic: Old Testament," in David
Freedman, ed., _The Anchor Bible Dictionary_, 6 vols, 4:469; also
JOshua Trachtenberg, "Jewish Magic and Superstition: A Study in folk
Religion" 19-20.)
Before the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, Jewish tradition
held that King Solomon's wisdom included his vast knowledge of magic
and medicine.
Innumerable people have believed and still do beleive in the
magickal power of the Name -- that the true name of anything has
power. It was on this basis that YHWH, (one of the sacred Names of
God), known as the Tetragrammaton, (from which "Yahweh" and
later "Jehovah" developed) was never spoken aloud by Jews; it was
replaced by the word, "Lord" throughout the Old Testament.
Because God's name was unutterable among Hebrews, they invested the
Tetragrammaton with enomous power. "Magic by means of the use of the
Holy Name was actually sanctioned, and the results that were sought
by it differed little if at all from the objects of heathen magic."
(Alafred Guillaume "Prophecy and Divination Among The Hebrews and
Other Semites" 269; Hyrum P Jones, "Magic and the Old Testament," MS
thesis, BYU 1933, 42; Gershom Sholem, "Kabbalah," in Roth,
_Encyclopaedia Judaica_ 10:494, 503)
Jewish and Christiian lore contains many references to occult
incantations, amulets, charms, spells, exoercisms, etc.
Jacob and Magick Rods:
The Bible indicates that the patriarch Jacob was interested in names
of power and in magic rods. Genesis 30:37-39 Jacob used rods to
cause [his father-in-law] Laban's flocks to produce spotted
offspring after merely looking at the rods. The scriptures do not
indicate whether Jacob received divine instruction or authorization
to use this method of FOLK MAGIC, which was widespread throughout
the ancient Middle East as one way to produce desired offspring.
(John McClintock and James Strong, ed., _Cyclopaedia of biblical
Theology and Ecclesiastical Literature_ 12 vols, 2:836)
Joseph and his Divining Cup:
According to Genesis 44:2,5 Joseph had a special silver cup in Egypt
with which "he divineth." "Divination by cups has been from time
immemorial prevalent among the Asiatics."
(Adam Clarke, _The Holy bible...With a Commentary and Critical
Notes... 6 vols, footnote printed below Gen 44:15; often
called "Clarke's Commentary")
"Instances of the use of cups of water and variants, can be found in
magical traditions from all over the world...."
(Richard Cavendish, ed _Man, Myth & Magic: An Illustrated
Encyclopedia of the Supernatural_, 24 vols, 18:2506)
Thus, without any biblical evidence of divine instruction or
reproof, Joseph resorted to a tool of magic divination (hydromancy)
that was in regular use among surrounding Pagans.
Casting Lots:
The God of Israel commanded his people to cast lots (Leviticus 16:8-
10), and the Hebrews chose priests and other temple workers by
casting lots (1 Chron. 24:5, 25:8, 26:13) The apostles of the New
Covenant also cast lots to select a replacement for Judas as an
apostle (Acts 2:24-26) *Not* a vote by ballot, the biblical casting
of lots was outwardly identical to sortilege practiced throughout
the ancient world by Pagans who sought to know the will of their
various gods."
(M'Clintock and Strong, _Cyclopaedia of Biblical Theology_, 5:519-
20; Jones, _Magic and the Old Testament" 545; Jeffers, _Magic and
Diviniation in Ancient Palestine and Syria_, 96-98)
"Judaising" Magic:
The _Encyclopaedia Judaica_ observed: "While repudiating the power
of sorcery, biblical religion at times utilizes means and methods
which were borrowed from magical practice --" but as Jewish scholar
Jacob Neusner has noted: "Judaizing magic made it no less magical."
(Jacob Neusner, "The Wonder Working Lawyers of Talmudic Babylonia:
The theory and practice of Judaism in its Formative Age"
Magical Healing:
Bible commentators have also generally acknowledged the magic
context of instances where objects had power to heal. In Numbers
21:9 Moses constructs a brass serpent, and any Israelite bitten by
deadly serpents was healed by looking upon this image.
The _Abingdon Bible Commentary_ noted that this "is but one
illustration of a practice well known outside the Bible as well as
within it, namely, making an image of a pest or affliction and
presenting the image to the deity who, in turn, would banish the
pest."
(Frederick Carl Eiselen, Ediwin Lewis, and DAvid Downey, ed. _The
Abingdon bible Commentary_308-309; also Joseph Dan, "Magic," in
Roth, _Encyclopaedia Judaica_ 11:705)
In 2 Kings 13:21, a corpse revived to mortal life when it came into
contact with the bones of the prophet Elisha. The _Interpreter's
Bible_ commented that such belief was "common among primitive
people....." (Buttrick, _Interpreter's Bible_ 3:258)
St. Paul's Magic Handkerchiefs:
In one of the New Testament's best examples of magic healing, Saint
Paul sent special handkerchiefs among the people to heal (Acts
19:12).
Jesus the Magician: (the title of a book, btw)
Jesus himself was accused of being a magician by Celsus and Jewish
rabbis. Porphyry, another Pagan writer, dismissed Jesus as "not even
an extraordinary magician," and called the apostle Peter "a dabbler
in the black arts."
This was so well-known that medieval Passion plays emphasized the
acusation against "Christ the Sorcerer"."
(R H NIcholson, "The Trial of Christ the Sorcerer in the York
Cycle," _Journal of Medieval and Renaissance Studies_ 16:125-69)
"The belief, accusation or tradition that Jesus was a magician and
that he passed magical power to his apostles and to the church as a
whole is thus found in Judaism, Gnosticism, Christian orthodoxy and
heterodoxy, Paganism, Islam and Mandeanism."
(Hohn Hull, _Hellenistic Magic and the Synoptic Tradition_ 4)
In many of the miracles of Jesus, the techniques closely parallelled
magic practices of the ancient world. For example, Jesus used
spittle to heal (John 9:6) and used Aramaic words in an otherwise
Greek text of healing words ( Mark 5:41). Pagan magicians used
spittle to heal the blind, put their fingers in the ears to heal the
deaf, employed the same series of seperate acts involved in some of
the more detailed Gospel healings, and used foriegn words as part of
magic spells and incantations.
(David Freidrich Strauss, "Thje Life of Jesus, Critically Examined,"
2 vols, 2:299, 305)
Egyptologist Robert K Ritner has observed that Egyptian "saliva
magic" was "given new justification by the miracles of Jesus."
(Robert Ritner, "The Mechanics of Ancient Egyptian Magic Practice"
89, 91)
Religious historian Stephen Benko observed that the accusation of
magic against early Christians was not mere polemical distortion.
Non-Christians saw no difference between Christian glossolalia
(speaking in tongues) and the gibberish of lower-class magicians and
exorcists....(Stephen Benko, _Pagan Rome and the Early Christians_
118, 125, 132; also E R Dodds, _Pagn and Christian in an Age of
Anxiety: Some Aspects of Religious Experience From Marcus Aurelius
to Constantine 125-26)
Christians used "objects, rites, words and formulas charged with
divine potency to force demons to yield," all in accordance with
well-known, contemporary rules of magic. Christians may have claimed
this was not magic, but it certainly looked like magic.
Conspiracy of Silence?
Historian David E Aune says that many authors "most of whom consider
themselves biblical theologians, write as if they were involved in a
conspiracy to ignore or minimize the role of magic in the New
Testament and early Christian literature.....
It does not seem appropriate to regard Jesus as a magician, yet
Jesus DID make use of magical tecnniques which must be regarded as
magical."
(David A Aune, "Magic in Early Christianity" 1508, 1539, 1538; also
E P Sanders, "Jesus and Judaism 169-173; see also _Jesus the
Magician_)
Once again, Christian objections to the practice of magick seems to
be: "If WE do it, it's holy; if YOU do it, it's evil" !'
And about the Goddess as the holy spirit,who says 'she' can't be concidered a goddess?
Here is somethings from the Gospel of the Holy Twelve:
Where you will find:
"1. JESUS came to a certain fountain near Bethany, around which grew twelve palm
trees, where he often went with his disciples to teach them of the mysteries of
the kingdom, and there he sat beneath the shade of the trees and his disciples
with him.
2. And one of them said, Master, it is written of old, The Alohim made man in
Their own image, male and female created They them. How sayest thou then that
God is one? And Jesus said unto them, Verily, I said unto you, In God there is
neither male nor female and yet both are one, and God is the Two in One. He is
She and She is He. The Alohim-our God-is perfect, Infinite, and One.
3. As in the man, the Father is manifest, and the Mother hidden; so in the
woman, the Mother is manifest, and the Father hidden. Therefore shall the name
of the Father and the Mother be equally hallowed, for They are the great Powers
of God, and the one is not without the other, in the One God.
4. Adore ye God, above you, beneath you, on the right hand, on the left hand
before you, behind you, within you, around you. Verily, there is but One God,
Who is All in All, and in Whom all things do consist, the Fount of all Life and
all Substance, without beginning and without end.
5. The things which are seen and pass away are The manifestations of the unseen
which are eternal, that from the visible things of Nature ye may reach to the
invisible things of the Godhead; and by that which is natural, attain to that
which is spiritual.
6. Verily, the Alohim created man in the divine image male and female, and all
nature is in the Image of God, therefore is God both male and female, not
divided, but the Two in One, Undivided and Eternal, by Whom and in Whom are all
things, visible and invisible."
So there's one theory thats very popular,calling upon God or Goddess,and the two as one Godhead.
I think nobody should be arguing about other's religion,and try to bring them down...like I said before. That's about as ignorant as some Christians act about Wiccans or vice versa. :mad:
And I think they are a lot alike in many ways...and if you wanna argue about that too..I'd be glad :rolleyes:
Witches do have a Witches bible that most of us live our lives by
pipers_son
29-10-03, 22:10
Ldy Alisa, what are you talking about? Unless you are talking about a personalized book of shadows, witches do not have a "Witch's Bible." Unless I'm mistaken and Llewellyn or some other crappy pseudo-pagan publishing company has put out a book called "Witch's Bible." In which case, I stand corrected but also smirk at the very mention of said piece o' crap publication.
Witches bible? Maybe you mean the wiccan rede(Or however that is spelled)?
There is a Book called A Witches Bible
Information:
A Witches Bible: The Complete Witches Handbook
by Authors: Janet Farrar , Stewart Farrar
Released: August, 1996
ISBN: 0919345921
Paperback
Book is avalible at amazon
It Banishes alot of Stereo-types
I really wish more non-pagans and non-wiccans would read this book. It has a ton of information, yes, it is a little advanced, the first time I had read it though was after 8 years of practicing. There are no spells in there, so its not for someone who is looking for Wicca or paganism as a way to practice magick and be different from their friends, but a look at true religion. It has history, and ethics and practices and beliefs, something everyone should know. Even beginners should read this book. I have never read a book yet that has absolutly everything in one. Though one really good book, and the first I ever read, is the ABCs of Witchcraft. It also gives a ton of great information, in a little bit easier to understand format. But I think everyone should read this book. I agree that the word bible through me off in buying it, only because I didnt want to look like I was trying to be one of the wanna be wiccans who are interested in it because its a big black book with two words that stand out, Witch and Bible. But I am extremly glad that I did buy it. My copy is doggeared and stained and dusty and looks as well used and read and loved as any ritualistic book should. all I can say is buy it, read it, if you dont understand it the first time, read it again. If that still doesnt work, keep it, and read it after practicing longer, and after reading some of the easier to read books. But keep this book. :)
The Best Introduction to Wicca
In America, Wicca has by and large degenerated into silliness, choked on crystals and blinded by white light. This is unfortunate; the religion of Gerald Gardner (and later Alex Sanders) and generally had solid scholarly roots. While some of those roots have since been disproven -- notably Margaret Murrays "Witch Cult" theories -- there was real intellectual activity, and real philosophical rigor, behind this religion. These were serious people who werent afraid to visit a library, and who even included some decent poetry in their rituals.
*The Witches Bible* is compiled by two of the most famous of the Alexandrian Witches, Janet and Stewart Farrar. The title does not lie: it truly is a complete witchs handbook. After reading this, you will know everything you need to hold a circle and to practice Wicca. You wont be an initiated Wiccan -- that can only be done by someone who possesses the lineage to do so -- but you will be able to serve the God and Goddess in a Wiccan style. You will also be ready to study for initiation and to reap its benefits and fulfill its responsibilities.
EowynHalliwell
30-10-03, 19:53
Witches do have a Witches bible that most of us live our lives by
If pipers_son hasn't heard of it, and none of the other magick/magic practisers have mentioned it, I wonder if "most of" witches live their lives by it. Printed in 1996 and less than 10 years old, most witches live their lives by it? Okay, if you say so.
If pipers_son hasn't heard of it, and none of the other magick/magic practisers have mentioned it, I wonder if "most of" witches live their lives by it. Printed in 1996 and less than 10 years old, most witches live their lives by it? Okay, if you say so.
I do enjoy a little sacrasm once in a great while. But please do not act like I am a novice witch because that I am not. I am a witch by birth. I am a desecentant of Czechoslovakian Gypsy Priest and Priestess, as well as a descent from a cherokee native american tribe. I am eceltic in my ways because of the differences in the paths that I am drawn to. I am a witch by all means. My studies include and still does: Celtic Wicca, grerco - roman theology, Cermonial Magik, Candle and Moon Magik, Astral Projection, Telepathy, Crystal's and their uses in magik, druidry, Norse, and egyptain. In 2002 I found a online campus that has now 22 courses of the various pagan paths and 150 students. I have been walking the path for 26 years. I have earned respect from the elders in my coven to honor me with the title of High Priestess.
This book is something I have recommended to countless pagans and followers of other religion. i'm not to much in love with the name but the book in and of it'self is great for educating those on the way of Wicca.
Light and Love
Lady Alisa Cerridwenn
The Light of the Goddess Society
EowynHalliwell
31-10-03, 13:19
It's just a bit hard to tell without a wink smiley or 'LOL' to tell me when someone is just being facetious. I've got a tad bit of Cherokee in me too.
I've heard of eclectic and celtic, but not eceltic.
It's just a bit hard to tell without a wink smiley or 'LOL' to tell me when someone is just being facetious. I've got a tad bit of Cherokee in me too.
I've heard of eclectic and celtic, but not eceltic.
LOL I was trying to get 3 children ready for their halloween parades while trying to type this as well tis human to error. I am eclectic . Cool that you have cherokee in you. I am embrassing more of my native american side and starting to study Shamanism.
Happy Samhain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Fallen Seraphim
31-10-03, 13:50
LOL I was trying to get 3 children ready for their halloween parades while trying to type this as well tis human to error. I am eclectic . Cool that you have cherokee in you. I am embrassing more of my native american side and starting to study Shamanism.
Happy Samhain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh, so you have 3 children? Yay for you!!! Well, my youngest sister (ArwenHalliwell) is 14 and still plans on going out tonight with her friends to go trick-or-treating, just for the fun of it...oh, and the candy and spooky coolness of it all to, according to my friend, also 14, Christina (funkeepiper).
Well, I'm going with some of my friends out to some nearby nightclubs to celebrate the night away. Yeah, and I'm improper Bostonian, currently 22...so do you think that's too old for trick-or-treating? *heehee lol*
Actually, I was thinking of getting some spells done tonight, but I'm not sure if I should, it being needed to be extra careful in using magic tonight.
Also, I need suggestions...my friend has a friend whose grandmother recently died, and she wants to preform a seance to try and contact the grandmother in the Other World. She thought it'd probably be best to do it tonight, but I didn't think so. And also, another one of her Wiccan friends (*very rare at her school*) also suggested against it, because of the extra-thin barrier between the Mortal Realm and the Spirit Realm tonight, and something could go terribly wrong...
So, what do you all suggest??
Belthazor666
01-11-03, 14:53
Witchcraft = GOOD; Satanic = EVIL
it just depends how you use magic. There is no such thing as white magic or black magic. This is a cummon fault people make, it's how you use your magic... good ot evil
I read about someone who said that for when you can't sleep or have nightmares to put an Amethyst under your pillow... this is correct BUT... the pillow should not be made from Synthetic material then otherwise it won't work!
Blessed Be
EowynHalliwell
02-11-03, 21:34
While you're talking about spells, I think that's another difference between Wicca and Christianity, that Christians will use each other's prayers word for word often.
"The Lord's Prayer" is taken directly from Jesus himself, and lots of people use St. Francis' "Make me a channel of your peace...", and St. Therese' words tend to be used a lot, St. Augustine's, etc. If the words are clearly what you mean, you may use them in the Christian faith to speak to God. Or you may make up your own, and they don't have to be kept or memorized to get the same effect with a prayer. It's the intent that often counts in prayer.
SylverDragyn, I would like to 'argue' the point you're making, since I'll probably learn something. Pardon my slowness, since my computer time is a bit upredictable, and I'd like to check some things.
/me watches as PP puts on a raincoat to avoid the upcoming mess, er, possible mess. :D
While you're talking about spells, I think that's another difference between Wicca and Christianity, that Christians will use each other's prayers word for word often.
"The Lord's Prayer" is taken directly from Jesus himself...
I don't think "The Lord's Prayer" is a great example to give, because it definitely isn't word-for-word. Through the centuries it has been condensed and changed a lot by different translators, so that now, although the intent and the message is the same, the words are quite different.
But otherwise, I agree with that point. In Christianity, with a prayer, you can trust that the words mean exactly what they say, and that the only intention behind them is the one that is being expressed through it.
And it seems to me, that if you can't trust the same with spells, it could be very dangerous to use them.
EowynHalliwell
03-11-03, 14:30
I don't think "The Lord's Prayer" is a great example to give, because it definitely isn't word-for-word. Through the centuries it has been condensed and changed a lot by different translators, so that now, although the intent and the message is the same, the words are quite different.
But otherwise, I agree with that point. In Christianity, with a prayer, you can trust that the words mean exactly what they say, and that the only intention behind them is the one that is being expressed through it.
And it seems to me, that if you can't trust the same with spells, it could be very dangerous to use them.
I see what you mean that the earliest manuscripts we have may not even be in the original lanquage it(Lord's Prayer) was spoken (I'm assuming that it was in Aramaic, the common tongue in that time and place). I guess I hadn't really thought of it from the point of view that it isn't said in Aramaic, but it's said in hundreds of languages millions of times everyday. You're right about the intent.
I don't quited understand the warning about the wording of spells, though of course I don't practice magic. It just seems to me if you cast a spell to get your true love to think of coming back to you, the intent would be just what the spell says, and you would just have to individualize it with Bill, Joe or Maryann.
I was thinking about the idea that Jesus used magic, but miracles are not magic. Magic concerns the use of power that was given to spirits, people, plants, things, elements, and is not straight from God. It is harnessed by the magic user for his or her own purposes. Miracles and prayer that Jesus used came from God, they did not reflect Jesus' desires or will, except when his will agreed with God's.
The Holy Spirit is God's advocate, and helps to fulfill God's will, not ours. The Holy Spirit also helps humans to know what God's will is. I can't think of anything that would point to believing the Holy Spirit is the Goddess of Wicca, Pagan spirituality, the Greek Pantheon, or any other religion or spirituality. I think the Holy Spirit is unique to Judeo-Christianity.
EowynHalliwell
04-11-03, 11:34
It was raining raincoats earlier, I think that just fell out of a tree. Really. :D
I said 'quited'. :: rolls eyes at self. ::
PiperWitch
09-11-03, 02:16
This is what everyone has been tsalking about, the whole christian wicca thing. WEll can't you just take the answers that you have? I mnean, there is at least 2 full pages in all of the christian wicca threads
EowynHalliwell
09-11-03, 10:25
What exactly do you mean? Close the thread because all of the Christianity vs. Wicca questions that could come up have already been answered have been answered in this thread?
I don't think so. This thread existed before most or all of the other threads pertaining to Christianity and Wicca, and there is still discussion on the subject that fits here better than anywhere else.
PiperWitch? Yo, of course it's easy to just say, "Ah okay, let's move on, question solved", but that wouldn't be most effective, now would it? I personally think that you can follow whatever religion you seek, it's your way of looking at the world and things beyond it. I can bring a truckload of quotes about this, but will settle for one:
"To believe in God or in a guiding force because someone tells you to is the height of stupidity. We are given senses to receive our information within. With our own eyes we see, and with our own skin we feel. With our intelligence, it is intended that we understand. But each person must puzzle it out for himself or herself."
- Sophy Burnham
EowynHalliwell
16-11-03, 22:00
Yeah, very interesting.
I don't believe what I believe without thinking it through. Yes, sometimes I take things cautiously on faith, then reason things out by testing the theory or whatever it is out.
Whatever does not work I either put back on a shelf or get rid of it altogether. Whatever does work, I try to USE, a lot. :)
thebloodie
22-11-03, 00:16
im just sayingim a witch and theres alot of differance between witchcraft and christantiy cause the christains think where evil and we arent evil
blessed be
damian
Protector1
28-11-03, 08:27
I love this place. This is the first thread that i've seen ever that actually was advocate to the idea or argueing your points. I love to argue, as you will soon find out.
Christianity. Wiccan.
Christianity strictly prohibits any magic that is used because when you perform rituals, you are praying and worshipping something else. This will be breaking one of the commandments, very bad.
Wiccan, well, duh, you use magic.
I hate saying that word - magic. m..a...g..i...c. Seems so kiddy and childish, does anyone agree?
These are just random thoughts, so don't feel bad if you're confused.
I like to study pagan and wiccan, the whole supernatural bit is facinating. So interesting. Although i'm a Christian, knowledge is power but wisdom is absolute ...hmm...
Anyways....
I think that everyone has the right to do whatever they want, but that doesn't mean that what they are diong isn't good.
you say that you have no satan in your religion, is that true? Afterall, Satan is just the king of evil. He governs it. If your god & goddess are the balance of good and evil and they are gods then they are gods of evil...and good. See what I mean? So, although you say Satan isn't in your religion, the meaning of him most certainly is.
I'm bored. So i'll continue to talk:
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Ok, I guess I don't have anything to say. Ok. I'm going to go and explore more of the board. The layout has changed, that's nice.
“you say that you have no satan in your religion, is that true?”Yes.
“Satan is just the king of evil.”Christianity needs Satan to maintain a balance of good and evil. There is evil in the world, so it doesn’t make sense that a perfectly “good” God would cause such horrible things to happen. Without Satan, all the evil acts in the world would have to be attributed to the Christian God, and Christians could no longer perceive God as being truly benevolent.
“If your god & goddess are the balance of good and evil and they are gods then they are gods of evil...and good.”Correct. As I have said before (I think?), I view the pagan gods as being both good and evil, just like the rest of us. They are creators and destroyers, givers of life and bringers of death. I personally don’t believe in any concrete delineation between “good” and “evil,” because such a concept is far too simplistic for such a complex universe.
“So, although you say Satan isn't in your religion, the meaning of him most certainly is.”Right, but we don’t have an evil entity to blame for all the world’s problems. There is no pagan “boogeyman.”
Protector1
28-11-03, 19:16
But Christianity isn't about that. We don't blame the problems on him, at least I don't. I believe that God gave us all freewill and that if wie screw up and do something wrong, take responsibility for it and don't say that the devil did it. People make their own decisions. If they didnt' then what exactly will God be judging?
There can be a world of nothing but good. God let Satan exist b/c he wanted for the people to make their own decisions and let it "play out." Some people say "but he already knows the outcome" Yeah, He does. But if you know that a baby, when he grows up will kill 2 people when he is 50 rs. old, will you kill him as an infant? I hope not. That's how i see it.
Every religion that i've studied has so many similarties that it really makes you think.
im christian but i do practice magic at times because the way i see it is if you dont do anything bad like put a curse on someone god will not put you in hell so i do think you can practice both or a little of one or the other
Invincible121
29-11-03, 10:39
Don't bring free will into it. That goes out the window when you see the whole "worship me or go to hades" clause of christianity. Shit load of free will there :uhh:
EowynHalliwell
01-12-03, 14:39
I won't debate the existence of Satan, but will just say since Satan is real, no need to invent. God doesn't have a need for a scapegoat.
As for worship or go to hell, it's more like learn to trust or you won't believe God when he tells you where the good stuff is.
You know, I'm going to try to stay out of the Christian vs Pagan debates. I have participated in more than my fair share of religious discussions in the past, and they tend to end badly (to put it lightly). I have nothing but respect for Christians, so I have no desire to attack their faith. By the way, if my above post offended anyone, I apologize; that was not my intention. You are free to believe as you wish, as am I.
Don't bring free will into it. That goes out the window when you see the whole "worship me or go to hades" clause of christianity. Shit load of free will there :uhh:
But a whole lot of people don't pay any attention to what you crudely put as "Worship me or go to hades", in other words, God's will. If that affected free will, everyone would be Christian.
God isn't forcing us to do anything. If he was, don't you think we'd be doing it? God is giving us choice, but also letting us know both sides of the coin.
However, I understand where you're coming from, and overall, I think the free will issue is just too confusing to figure out, and not worth spending time on.
"Christians are right. Wiccans are wrong. That's the end of it all."
AngelAbove
07-12-03, 14:14
I slightly dissagree with this comparison because some Christians believe in gods and goddesses and some Wiccans believe in God. Sometimes they believe in both. And as you said, rituals and praying are balenced. They are both ways to tributing to their god/gods and goddesses.
EowynHalliwell
09-12-03, 14:28
Well, worshipping any other deity but Jehovah is forbidden to Christians. Not that a person can't be forgiven for it, but it's definitely forbidden by Christian spirituality. On the other hand a Wiccan who worships Jehovah probably is considered to be on the right track in general.
PaigeOrbedAgai
14-12-03, 21:29
well i disagree with the monotheism somebdy argued. christianity is a monothesim religion becuase you ultimatly believe in jesus because hes supposed to be your savior or something, then they think that god is the one who created all life
~~~ Hailey ~~~
EowynHalliwell
17-12-03, 16:52
Do you mean that doesn't seem to be monotheistic, that it sounds like two Gods? The usual argument is that God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one God. I've also heard that Jesus created the world, that God empowered him to do so. It is still monotheistic in that there is no doubt that God is #1 and Jesus #2 or three after the Holy Spirit.
charmed192
14-03-04, 11:01
Why do so many people say that you worship the devil if your a wiccan or study it? I mean if they don't believe that there is one main evil then how can they worship the devil? If you have any thoughts on this please reply.
Thanx,
Maggie
Well, a long time ago there was a ritual that the villagers would go to the fields in the light of the full moon and dance around the field astride pitchforks, poles and broomsticks; riding them like hobby-horses. They would leap high in the air as they danced, to show the crops how high to grow. The church claimed that they were working against the crops and that they were actually flying through the air on the broomsticks. Since they thought they were going against the crops the church blaimed the devil. That's one reason I guess.
(source="Buckland's Complete Book of Witchcraft")
-Tif
its real so deal your religin can be real to but wicca is real i know i am wiccan so
Damn, dude. That made no sense. Try using punctuation.
Why do so many people say that you worship the devil if your a wiccan or study it?
This false idea doesn't trace back to just one moment in history where people decided that those who study Wicca worship the devil. It's more of a misconception based upon ignorance. Wiccans get grouped in under the category of 'witches' by most Christians.
Most Christians believe that worshipping any other gods other than the one, true God from the Bible is wrong. The Bible condemns this practice as evil. So, by that thinking, witches are seen as evil.
That's the short version. There's much more I could add to this, but the above pretty much explains it without complicating things much.
cdavjelly11
15-03-04, 12:33
I would class myself as a practising Christian meaning I go to church once a week and have been doing so for the last 13 years. I believe that there is only one god but also believe that people who believe in god can carry out his work supernaturally. In Charmed the Charmed Ones make many references to Christianity and in Season 1 we see pipers struggle with whether she is evil or not, as she is scared to cross the churches threshold. Personally this is one of the reasons why I became interested in Wiccan. I'd had people preach to me my whole life about how witchcraft was evil etc etc, and then Charmed came along and showed me the positive side of witchcraft. I practise wiccan myself now and read the tarot but also still talk to God and Jesus. I don't think that been a wiccan means you are cavorting with the Devil and personally I think people who think that are small minded and are not comfortable with their own faith.
EowynHalliwell
15-03-04, 14:16
The very serious Christians I know do make a distinction between Wicca and devil worship. But the idea that evil doesn't exist is considered dangerous. It's like saying if you refuse to believe in broken legs, and if you are the type of person who would never wish anyone's legs broken, you'll never break your leg. That is not a realistic attitude. I don't know how anyone can believe in the supernatural, and not admit the possibility of evil.
I also don't know how anyone can believe in God and Jesus, and not believe there is a Satan also. It's seems as though people who don't believe that there is evil in the world are hiding their heads in the sand. If magic can be used for good, it can also be used for evil, and there are people who do just that.
There is also the idea that Christians have that usually Satan doesn't announce his presence. He is in many churches and institutions including even some Christian churches. That is the best way for him to stop people from really learning about God. There are lots of clever doctrines in some supposedly Christian churches that really lead people further away from doing what Jesus wants them to.
So it is not surprising that when a religion becomes popular, whether Wicca or new age practices, it is considered very possible that Satan is there, pretending to be a neutral figure with the good news that evil and hell and Satan don't really exist.
I think that is the most legitimate basis for believing that Wiccans really worship the devil, but don't realize it. You now know, if you didn't already, that many Christians do not truly worship Jesus and have God's blessing any more than devil worshippers do. But we don't belong all in the same category any more than all Wiccans are bad, or all Pagans are bad.
_______________________
Edit: I don't believe in Christianity just because I saw a show that shows it in a positive light. I don't think that people should take light entertainment so seriously. I don't believe in Catholicism just because I like the Flying Nun, Michelangelo or Fr. Mulcahy from the TV show M*A*S*H*. In fact the more I know about Roman Catholicism, the more I know I think that the RC religion screws people up.
Not that there aren't nice Roman Catholics, but they don't all stay nice, and some of the ones who seem good also seem very mixed up because of their religion.
I do like Charmed of course, but it's not about religion. If it is supposed to represent Wicca, they are really portraying it badly. I think it's just supposed to be a fun show, and Wicca is an element to play off of, a plot element. The sisters are good because they are good, not because they are Wiccan or hereditary witches.
cdavjelly11
16-03-04, 01:55
I wasn't saying that I don't believe in the devil because I do but I don't think that been a wiccan necessarily makes you evil, and I didn't start practising wiccan just from watching the show I'd always been interested in the supernatural etc, as I'd had experiences with spirits from an early age. All I'm am trying to say is that I think that as a Christian it is possible to be a wiccan I just concentrate on the elements and meditation, and try and stay away from black magic, e.g doing magic to hurt others
EowynHalliwell
16-03-04, 11:38
Okay, I see what you mean, cdavjelly11. I have had spiritual experience too, before being a more committed Christian. I still do. Some of the experiences were rather dark, some the opposite. I like my spiritual experiences now better, because they result in less confusion. To me I have no business getting to know other spirits unless God tells me to. I suppose it's possible that that might happen.
IMHO, if you are a Christian, you should seek Christ and his will for you. However, you and I are not the first Christians to indulge in something that seems as though it's not forbidden when it is. We can always justify things and/or find someone else who will justify it for you. When I was doing what I was convinced was justifiable, my life was also going down the tubes. What I was doing was trying solve my problems with something that really wasn't going to work.
I sometimes actually believe that messing with the occult is like going in a window, when you could just go in the door. It's safer, and the neighbors won't report you as a possible burglar. But there are so many false Christian churches out there who mislead people, that it's like a maze trying to find the truth.
Payableondeath
23-03-04, 19:00
Judging from what I've read, seen, heard, and studied in general, the end explanation is quite simple. If you believe in the bible, thats it you believe in the bible. If you believe in the bible you must also recognise paganism in general. There is a lot of scripture on witches, sorcerers, and pagans in the bible. But if you believe it is true, you can't just believe in part of it. There is no room for contridictions. Jesus says it blatently, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the father but through me." To make a long boring post short and sweet, If you are wiccan and your beliefs are true, then I as a christian have nothing to worry about. But if your beliefs are not true, and I am right... well you get the idea. That is something there is no explanation for.
...If you believe in the bible, thats it you believe in the bible. If you believe in the bible you must also recognise paganism in general. There is a lot of scripture on witches, sorcerers, and pagans in the bible. But if you believe it is true, you can't just believe in part of it...If you are wiccan and your beliefs are true, then I as a christian have nothing to worry about. But if your beliefs are not true, and I am right... well you get the idea. That is something there is no explanation for.
The fuck? I'm not sure I get what your main point is, but I believe the gist of what you were saying is: The Bible says Paganism is evil, therefore Christians believe that Paganism (which encompasses all witchcraft-practicing belief systems) is evil and you are a Christian, so you believe that Pagans are evil. Yes?
That's really not entirely true. Often, Christian religions take texts from the Bible and use them metaphorically. For instance, many sects believe that the whole "God created the Earth, humans, animals, etc. in 6 days and then rested on the 7th" is a metaphorical statement dumbed down for our puny human brains, which couldn't begin to understand time as God knows it, to read and comprehend. In other words, 7 days to God could really be 15 billion years. Some sects would see the above as blasphemous and wrong. So, there is a problem when trying to make a firm statement regarding how Christianity interprets the Bible due to the difference in how the sects believe.
My point is that you can't speak for how all sects of Christianity see Wicca and/or Paganism. There are sects which are much more open-minded about this sort of thing and believe that as long as God is the only one worshipped and the basic principles of the Bible adhered to, the person is quite fine practicing rituals which make him/her feel better. Paganism is not all hexing and raising zombies from the dead, you know. A lot of it is simply communing with nature and doing things which enrich the mind and spirit.
Or, hell, perhaps you don't have a clue about the actual details of Paganism and that's the reason for your post. Regardless, this issue isn't quite as clear as you originally presented it to be.
Payableondeath
23-03-04, 22:23
Actually, I was making a simple statement that if what you believe as a wiccan, (if in fact that is what you proclaim as your religion) in your beliefs I will not be judged by my bad deeds. Instead they will come after me three times greater then the original bad deed I commited. But, I answer to no one because 'god' or 'goddess' is in everything. It is a contunious cycle which goes on and on forever. So, the fact of the matter is if I die, and you are right, then I will just be reincarnated in another form of some sort. What you are not stating is that what you believe as a wiccan can be absolutely the same as another wiccan, or completely different. Some wiccans believe one god who has no gender, others believe in god and goddess, and yet others believe in many gods or goddesses. If this is so, then who is really right?
In the New Testamant of the Bible, it clearly states that all things that are not based on the gospel of jesus christ are in fact sin. Which yes does unfortunately include ALL forms of paganism. Just in case we are confused on the issue of paganism, it is defined as a people who do not believe in christ as the messiah.
I made my point as clear as i possibly could without being offensive and negative towards wiccans and witchcraft in my first statement. But now as i feel the negative boundaries have been crossed, i will just be blunt. IF I AM WRONG, IT DOESN'T MATTER. PERIOD. I will just be reincarnated in another life. But, if i am right, and Jesus Christ is the true messiah sent to pay for the sin of the world, as a sorcerer, you will burn in the eternal lakes of hell. I am sorry if what I said comes by as offensive to you, and I have no intentions of libelling wiccan people or its religion.
I will say however that you seem to boast knowlege of "christianity" and the bible. But you stereotype me the same way that you think so many christians stereotype you! The fact of the matter is this: If you are a christian, then you are a christ follower. period. You do as jesus teaches, and strive to be like him. Who do you base your moral character on? What principles do you live by that make you so much greater a human then me? In my belief ALL fall short of the glory of god. not goddess, or many gods. ONE GOD. that is the base. that is what it is all about. simple don't you think? Oh, i get it now, maybe nobody else but you understands how wiccan religion really works. Why do you say that you can't speak for all forms of christianity? Christianity isn't a religion. It is a relationship with the living god. period. People may have slightly different interpratitions of things such as parts of genesis, and revalations, but at least they are all based on one truth and one truth only. Jesus. period. so what is your truth? Is it different from other wiccans? Is it the same? What is the basis. What are YOUR facts. Mine are all historically relavent since the beginnings of time recording. Look at your history books before you throw my bible in my face.
You say maybe i know nothing about paganism. I say maybe you know nothing about christianity, because if you did you wouldn't refer to it as a religion.
forgive them father for they know not what they do.
p.s. Where are the wiccan history books? I would really like to learn more of its historical origin. As it seems there really is no one book that i can find that in. I wonder why that is? Oh, dear. Questions, questions.
Okay, what you just managed to prove in that heap of a post of yours that nobody is right and nobody knows nothing about anything. Or at least that's the impression I'm getting.
Actually, I was making a simple statement that if what you believe as a wiccan, (if in fact that is what you proclaim as your religion) in your beliefs I will not be judged by my bad deeds. Instead they will come after me three times greater then the original bad deed I commited.
Newsflash: You are NOT making a "Simple" statement. Your statement is very confused. From your post, I see that you are a Christian, right? So since when do christians believe in the threefold law? Now this part is completely obscure:
Actually, I was making a simple statement that if what you believe as a wiccan, (if in fact that is what you proclaim as your religion) in your beliefs I will not be judged by my bad deeds.
I don't get it, if she is a wiccan, YOU will not be jdged by your bad deeds. Huh?
So, the fact of the matter is if I die, and you are right, then I will just be reincarnated in another form of some sort. What you are not stating is that what you believe as a wiccan can be absolutely the same as another wiccan, or completely different. Some wiccans believe one god who has no gender, others believe in god and goddess, and yet others believe in many gods or goddesses. If this is so, then who is really right?
I'm getting a headache decyphering your sentences. What is your point in this sentence? Who is "Right"? What the hell are you trying to say? Yes, I do realize different sorts of pagans have different beliefs, but what does that have to do with who is "Right", or even with this thread?
In the New Testamant of the Bible, it clearly states that all things that are not based on the gospel of jesus christ are in fact sin. Which yes does unfortunately include ALL forms of paganism. Just in case we are confused on the issue of paganism, it is defined as a people who do not believe in christ as the messiah.
Yes, the Bible does hint that it's a sin not to believe in Jesus. No, paganism is NOT defined as someone who does not believe in Jesus. As far as I know, paganism=Polytheism. Jews and Muslims are not pagans. Stop using those false facts here.
made my point as clear as i possibly could without being offensive and negative towards wiccans and witchcraft in my first statement. But now as i feel the negative boundaries have been crossed, i will just be blunt. IF I AM WRONG, IT DOESN'T MATTER. PERIOD. I will just be reincarnated in another life. But, if i am right, and Jesus Christ is the true messiah sent to pay for the sin of the world, as a sorcerer, you will burn in the eternal lakes of hell. I am sorry if what I said comes by as offensive to you, and I have no intentions of libelling wiccan people or its religion.
I am sorry, I am not being offensive, but YOU WILL ALL BURN I THE ETERNAL LAKES OF HELL!!! TAKE THAT, SHITHOLES!!! Or at least that's the impression I'm getting. There is no point in that argument, saying "It doesn't matter who is right" is not considered saying anything. That's what's called an "Appeal to complexity", assuming that if you don't understand something/not sure of something, then nobody is.
I will say however that you seem to boast knowlege of "christianity" and the bible. But you stereotype me the same way that you think so many christians stereotype you!
Please show me those stereotypes, because I didn't see any.
The fact of the matter is this: If you are a christian, then you are a christ follower. period. You do as jesus teaches, and strive to be like him. Who do you base your moral character on? What principles do you live by that make you so much greater a human then me? In my belief ALL fall short of the glory of god. not goddess, or many gods. ONE GOD. that is the base. that is what it is all about. simple don't you think? Oh, i get it now, maybe nobody else but you understands how wiccan religion really works.
You begin at point A, jump to point F and then do a double corkscrew backflip to point Y. You start about Christianity and how Christians should believe in Jesus, proceed to ask a bunch of questions, then accuse people of not knowing how the wiccan relifion works. Ooooooooookay... Also, I didn't see a hint in Ashley's post that she claims to be such a great authority. Burden Of Proof? Why? Who said that she needs to be an expert in order for her to be right, or you win by default? Why is that you have the priority? ""Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." Remember that.
Why do you say that you can't speak for all forms of christianity? Christianity isn't a religion. It is a relationship with the living god. period. People may have slightly different interpratitions of things such as parts of genesis, and revalations, but at least they are all based on one truth and one truth only. Jesus. period. so what is your truth? Is it different from other wiccans? Is it the same? What is the basis. What are YOUR facts. Mine are all historically relavent since the beginnings of time recording. Look at your history books before you throw my bible in my face.
How can you say your facts are relevant when you didn't state any? Stop using those questions, seeing that they don't have anything to do with this argument. Also, I'd appreciate if you stop with the Genetic fallacy. The idea is that things from that origin, or that social class, have virtue or lack virtue. Which, BTW, is false.
Thunderstorm
24-03-04, 01:49
so what is your truth? Is it different from other wiccans? Is it the same? What is the basis. What are YOUR facts. Mine are all historically relavent since the beginnings of time recording. Look at your history books before you throw my bible in my face.
You say maybe i know nothing about paganism. I say maybe you know nothing about christianity, because if you did you wouldn't refer to it as a religion.
forgive them father for they know not what they do.
Allrighty.
According to research the oldest worship they've found signs of is a woman.
The mother goddess.
Look at the history book.
The ones you call Pagans have the oldest evidence to throw in your face.
How do we know the Bibel is all truth and no lies?
Do you think christ wrote it himself?
I can tell you with 100% cirtanty that he did not.
If he did not write it himself, and God didn't write it with his own two hands, how can you be sure this is the message he wanted to give people?
I have been a member of he church in my life.
I was a devoted christian for about 10 years and I had a very close relationship with Jesus.
I still have, even though I am a Pagan.
The Jesus I know respects my wishes to follow the path of the Goddess which I mainly follow.
I see him as a priest for the God and me as a priestess for the Goddess.
I see him as my brother, as I see you as my brother even though we do not agree on things.
I'm sure your father is happy to forgive me, after all, he is a loving God, isn't he?
And I'm sure the Goddess is willing to forgive your ignorance.
After all, I'd guess you've never tried out the Pagan life now, have you?
Well... I've tried the Christian life, even though I never believed in hell, sin or anything like that.
And how do you explain that?
I loved Jesus before I read the bible as a child, but never once did I believe in hell or sin.
I thought that the God was loving and forgiving.
Please... enlighten me with your wisdom and tell me how a Pagan,yes... even Wiccan can have a relationship with Jesus without being struck by lightning?
Blessed Be, and may the Goddess smile upon you,
Mina
...Instead they will come after me three times greater then the original bad deed I commited.
I am going to echo Freeze in my questioning on when Christians started believing in the threefold law. In fact, I'll go one step further and question where in the Bible this idea is found, because I'm pretty sure that it's not in the King James Version I was raised on. The threefold law is a Wiccan idea, not a Christian one. Perhaps you're confusing the Trinity with the Wiccan threefold law.
But, I answer to no one because 'god' or 'goddess' is in everything. It is a contunious cycle which goes on and on forever.
Now you're referencing a Native American religious belief. Christians, in general, believe in 'God', the One and Only, the Alpha and Omega. There are no 'gods' and 'goddesses' which are in everything.
So, the fact of the matter is if I die, and you are right, then I will just be reincarnated in another form of some sort...Some wiccans believe one god who has no gender, others believe in god and goddess, and yet others believe in many gods or goddesses. If this is so, then who is really right?
Firstly, I did not state that I am a Wiccan. I am actually not. I simply find the argumentative nature of Christians who come in and say "I am correct because the Bible says so" to be repulsive and I have no problem with calling into question the things which are stated.
Secondly, a Wiccan would likely tell you that what really matters is whether you are a good person or not, as opposed to what god or goddess you worship. Unlike Christianity, Wicca is based more upon actions than a system of set beliefs in one, divine creator.
In the New Testamant of the Bible, it clearly states that all things that are not based on the gospel of jesus christ are in fact sin.
Just out of curiosity: What makes you so sure that the Bible itself is correct in the first place? After all, it's pretty much been proven that the book of Genesis was embellished a bit, first and foremost in dealing with Noah and that whole global flood which no one can find any proof of. That's not even to mention Joshua and the walls of Jericho tumbling down not due to marching around the city with instruments, but rather years of successive earthquakes which finally wore down the wall until it collapsed. I don't think I'd be so quick to point out how the Bible is infallible unless you can back it up with proof.
But, if i am right, and Jesus Christ is the true messiah sent to pay for the sin of the world, as a sorcerer, you will burn in the eternal lakes of hell. I am sorry if what I said comes by as offensive to you, and I have no intentions of libelling wiccan people or its religion.
Well, thank God that I'm not a Wiccan, then. You do realize it's statements like these that create such animosity towards Christians, right?
The fact of the matter is this: If you are a christian, then you are a christ follower. period. You do as jesus teaches, and strive to be like him.
Jesus taught love and forgiveness, not condemnation. You could find all that hellfire and brimstone in the Old Testament, though, so I believe that you may be coming across as more of a follower of Moses and Joshua than Jesus.
Who do you base your moral character on? What principles do you live by that make you so much greater a human then me? In my belief ALL fall short of the glory of god. not goddess, or many gods. ONE GOD. that is the base. that is what it is all about. simple don't you think?
That's a jumbled mess of a statement there. I base my moral character on the idea that I do unto others as I would have done to me, but I'm not sure there's a revelance there since I'm aware that many Christians also live their lives this way. It's actually along the same lines as what Jesus taught.
I'm confused about where your moral superiority comes from. There have been many wars fought in the name of God and all believed that they were on the correct side of the war. A belief in one, true God doesn't make you a better person. Even the Bible would back that up. It simply means that you have a system of beliefs which is laid out for you by the Bible.
Why do you say that you can't speak for all forms of christianity? Christianity isn't a religion. It is a relationship with the living god. period.
Chris·ti·an·i·ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (krsch-n-t, krst-)
n.
1)The Christian religion, founded on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2) Christians as a group; Christendom.
3) The state or fact of being a Christian.
pl. Chris·ti·an·i·ties A particular form or sect of the Christian religion: the Christianities of antiquity.
See #1. Christianity is an established religion and has been for thousands of years. It has hundreds of sects which fall under the label and literally millions of followers. Perhaps you should check your facts before making statements like that.
People may have slightly different interpratitions of things such as parts of genesis, and revalations, but at least they are all based on one truth and one truth only.
Actually, no. The Jewish people don't believe in the New Testament of the Bible at all, yet the follow many of the same principles as Christians. So, where is the one truth to be found between the two?
You say maybe i know nothing about paganism. I say maybe you know nothing about christianity, because if you did you wouldn't refer to it as a religion.
Again, see above. This is a ludicrous statement.
Forgive them father for they know not what they do.
I concur. Please forgive this lost soul, because it is this type of ignorance that sends people fleeing from all types of Christians who might actually have some enlightening information to share.
Where are the wiccan history books? I would really like to learn more of its historical origin.
See nearly every civilization that has ever existed, especially the earlier ones. You'll find Wiccan beliefs are pervasive in every one of them, whether it's simply the idea of the threefold rule or a small fertility goddess being worshipped by a group of people who believe she'll help them to grow their tribe.
I'm not really sure about what your point is in attacking a system of beliefs which is so different from your own. Comparing Wicca and Christianity is not easy due to their rather enforced nature of Christianity that doesn't square well when up against the more personal nature of Wicca.
Also, I'd like to point out that it's Revelations, not revalations, as you spelled it. I would hope that such vigorous and knowledgeable defenders of Christianity (the established religion), such as yourself, would at least be able to get that right.
Some wiccans believe one god who has no gender, others believe in god and goddess, and yet others believe in many gods or goddesses. If this is so, then who is really right?
Everyone is right. Everyone is wrong. Personally, I believe that all religions are bullshit-- even Wicca. Mankind founds religions, not “God.” As I see it, religion is nothing more than mankind’s attempt to create “God” in our own image. IMO, it’s absolute nonsense to believe that an abstract being like “God” has a name or a human form.
That said, I still believe that all religions are valid. When we pray --no matter whether we call the Deity Jehovah, Diana, or just the generic “God”-- the higher power hears us. So, while the religion may be false, I believe that our connection to the Deity is real.
In the New Testamant of the Bible, it clearly states that all things that are not based on the gospel of jesus christ are in fact sin. Which yes does unfortunately include ALL forms of paganism.
Yes, according to Christian mythology, paganism is “evil.” Do I care? No. No offense to the decent Christians on this forum, but my opinion of Christianity is so low, that I honestly don’t give a damn about what the Bible says about me. Paganism was the only religious rival of Christianity during Biblical times, so it’s really not surprising that the Bible considers “witchcraft” a crime punishable by death. You have to consider the source...
Just in case we are confused on the issue of paganism, it is defined as a people who do not believe in christ as the messiah.
Wrong. A pagan is defined as a follower of a non-Abrahamic religion. Jews and Muslims are not pagan, and they do not believe that Jesus was the messiah.
IF I AM WRONG, IT DOESN'T MATTER. PERIOD. I will just be reincarnated in another life. But, if i am right, and Jesus Christ is the true messiah sent to pay for the sin of the world, as a sorcerer, you will burn in the eternal lakes of hell.
Oh, puh-lease. When will you Christians get it through your thick skulls that Pascal’s wager will NEVER work on non-Christians? What a horrible way to win converts! I will never be blackmailed into worshiping your deity, and quite frankly, after reading the Bible, I don’t think your “god” even deserves worship.
Who do you base your moral character on?
My morality is based on my conscience.
“What principles do you live by that make you so much greater a human then me?”The Rede is our goal, but it is an impossible ideal.
ONE GOD. that is the base. that is what it is all about. simple don't you think?
No, it's not "simple" at all. You can believe whatever you want, but do not state your faith as fact.
Christianity isn't a religion.
Ahhhhahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Thanks, POD. I needed a good laugh. :D
Where are the wiccan history books? I would really like to learn more of its historical origin. As it seems there really is no one book that i can find that in. I wonder why that is? Oh, dear. Questions, questions.
My, you are a condescending asshole, aren’t you? If you want to learn about the origins of Wicca, there are plenty of books to refer to, or you could even do a search online. So get off of your lazy butt and learn something.
Payableondeath
24-03-04, 13:33
Okay, here is my reply. Since it is ovbious that this site has nothing to do with religious tolerance, by the fact that my beliefs were attacked by the "pagan" belief structure, i'm going to do it like this.
If you are truly a seeker who wants to know the real truth about life and everything in it, check out real truth mag. Look for it on a search engine if you cant find the magazine at a bookstore. If you would just prefer to ignore the facts and contunially persecute christians please feel free to bash me with words all you want. I am protected by powers beyond your control. I am just simply going to leave you with some scripture. God inspired, about this wiccan religion.
leviticus 20:6-7
"I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute himself by following them, and i will cut him off from my people."
Deuteronomy 18:10-12
"Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead."
1 Samuel 28
please read of saul and the witch of Endor in a bible because it is too long to post.
Isaiah 8: 19-22
"When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their god? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn. Distressed and hungry, they will roam through the land; when they are famished, they will become enraged and , looking upward, will curse their king and their god."
Acts 8: 9-24
please read of Simon the Sorcerer who tried to buy the holy spirit, for it is too long to post.
Acts 13: 6-12
"They traveled through the whole island until they came to Paphos. There they met a Jewish sorcerer and false prophet maned Bar-Jesus, who was an attendant of the proconsul, Sergius Paulus. The proconsul, an intelligent man, sent for Barnabas and Saul because he wanted to hear the word of God. But Elymas the sorcerer (for that is what his name means) opp[osed them and tried to turn the proconsul from the faith. Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the holy spirit, looked straight at Elymas and said, "You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the lord? Now tthe hand of the lord is against you. You are going to be bling, and for a time you will be unable to see the light of the sun."
Immediately mist and darkness came over him, and he groped about, seeking someone to lead him by the hand. When the proconsul saw what had happened, he believed, for he was amazed at the teaching about the lord."
Acts 19: 13-19
"Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, "in the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out." Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. One day the evil spirit answered them, "Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?" Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.
When this became known to the Jews and Greeks living in Ephesus, they were all seized with frar, and the name of the Lord Jesus was held in high honor. Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed their evil deeds. A number who had practiced sorcery brought thier scrolls together and burned them publicly."
Galations 5: 19-21
"The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery, idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of god."
How funny is that? Thousands of years between Leviticus and galations and still the message is the same. Witchcraft is evil and it only comes from one place. I leave you with this: believe what you want. But you have been warned by the lord your god. Not just the god of me, but of EVERYTHING. The war is already won. It is in the scripture.
HERE IS THE ANSWER:
John 14:6
'Jesus answered,"I am the WAY and the TRUTH and the LIFE. No one comes to the father except through me. IF you really knew me, you would know my father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
John 4: 13
"Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks the water I give him will become in him a spring of watter welling up to eternal life."
Relelation 22: 21
"The grace of the lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen."
Witches beware: It isn't crazy christians you have to be worried about in the end. Amen.
Please shove it. Your bible quotes won't work, and stop acting all high-and-mighty on us. I never attacked your religious beliefs, just the way you presented your argument. And since this time you didn't provide any, I rest my case for now.
P.S: I am not Wiccan, please stop generalizing. I happen to be a very proud atheist arguing with you. Funny, isn't it?
Invincible121
24-03-04, 13:45
"Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire..."
As some Christians did to 'witches'? Sacraficing them to the fire so they'd be cleansed of the 'evil'? Hmm, interesting.
"or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead."
Dead like jesus? Who died and yet had people talk to him? And still does? The holy spirit, spirit being another word for ghost in some cases? It seems like a bunch of double-standards and contradictions.
And yes, atheist here too, I don't tend to like any religion at all. I just sympathise with Paganism more.
cdavjelly11
24-03-04, 14:12
Hello Christian here, and the way you are presenting your arguments is offending me payableondeath.
I have to agree with Phoenix and Invincible 121 the quotes you use from the bible are contradicting what most Christians believe. If we take your quotes literally then the whole Easter story is blasphemous and we shouldn't celebrate Jesus rising from the dead and telling his followers that he is risen!!!!!
No offence but this site does believe in religious tolerance, but I'm afraid if you try to force your beliefs on others then I'm afraid you are going to upset a few people and recieve some grief. Not everyone are Christians and believe in the same things that we do. Maybe you should read all the posts in this thread before taking offence to other peoples comments. If you had read the other pages you would have seen lots of comments from Christians that prove that there is tolerance in this thread.
Hope you don't take offence to this post but I just wanted to let you know that it has nothing to do with lack of tolerance for Christians but the way you put your point of views across.
Payableondeath
24-03-04, 16:55
I kinda figured after my last post that i should probably carify my situation not on what i believe as a faith, but being a human in general. I had no original intentions of making wiccans feel like I was condemning them. I am no better than any of you. I am no judge. With what christians truely believe, god is the only true judge. Jesus himself teaches to love your neighbor. He teaches to love your enemies. This is something I feel whether you agree with my beliefs or not, we as christians and wiccans can live by. I feel in my heart this is what god has said to me today. I've been praying about how to evangalise the word of Jesus Christ. If I went about it the wrong way please forgive me. I do not claim perfection and I am sorry for making anyone feel like I was saying I was better then them.
Arguing with someone is no way to win people to christ, or wiccanism.
To I think her name was Ashley, I feel I should apoligise if I made you feel like i was attacking you. I am sorry that I did you wrong.
I hope that this lightens things up a little bit, because I am not out to get you. Jesus says hate the sin not the sinner. And as hard as it is for me to admit, I know when I am outspoken.
If what you are doing is truly wrong, then the consiquences will be just for your actions just as they are for mine. That is not something that I should be worried about as long as i am living by love. love one another. This is something that christians and wiccans can have an agreement with. Lets agree to disagree, and we can make our world a better place.
I don't expect to be accepted, but I feel like at this point you all know humans make mistakes.
Once again I am truly sorry if I came across as a hater. I don't hate any of you, and I would be full of Blasphmey if i did.
Also too: there are people out there that do hate others... I feel that there is really no room for hate in this world anymore. maybe we could start a new set of ideas so that wiccans and christians can learn to accept eachother as people, and not just by what their faith is, or the color of their skin.
I do wish however that my first statements stay intact, so that all may see that it is not the scripture that i quoted that is inaccurate, but the mere fact that I inform people what the bible says and let them make decisions for themselves. that is something i truly can say amen to. amen. let it be so.
christian? wicca? I know what I believe in. But I am not an ignorant air head. I don't believe in this stuff because it doesn't make sense to me. It does. But what I have concluded, many others haven't.
BUT THERE SHOULD BE NO AAROGANCE IN THAT. LOVE SHOULD NOT BOAST AND I DID. I truly feel humbled by this experience. Thank you all for reminding me the easiest part of it all. love the lord your god with all your heart. LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR as you would yourself. Much love wiccan and christians alike.
EowynHalliwell
25-03-04, 14:03
As some Christians did to 'witches'? Sacraficing them to the fire so they'd be cleansed of the 'evil'? Hmm, interesting.
As Mystery once pointed out, possibly in another thread so you may not have seen it, at least some of the "witches" were Christians who were (falsely) accused of witchcraft, and they refused to confess. They were killed for refusing to renounce Christ. Those who did the accusing and killing were almost certainly not really Christian--in other words, they did not follow or obey Christ. They didn't belong to the group of Christians who will be saved.
Jesus said these types of people would come, speaking in his own name. These were the type of people who formed the Spanish Inquisition, depriving the church of more members by doing things like killing Jewish Christians for refusing to eat pork. This in opposition to what the New Testament believes. This type of Christian behavior, which it is obvious to even Pagans is not Christian behavior, is what happens when Christians allow themselves to be seduced into evil, disobeying God. They can no longer obey God, but only the Satanic influences in the world. These are the people who will experience a worse fate than the "lake of fire"
Dead like jesus? Who died and yet had people talk to him? And still does? The holy spirit, spirit being another word for ghost in some cases? It seems like a bunch of double-standards and contradictions.
Not dead anymore, not since the Resurrection. He was taken up into heaven, where he lives now. Christian do not believe that he is dead or that we pray to a ghost, or that a mere spirit speaks to some of us (if not all). Rather a moot point if you don't believe it, but there it is. No Christian who contacts Christ is considered a spiritist.
The Holy Spirit is considered to be part of God, not the ghost of anyone once living. He is also not merely one of the spirits or angels of this earth or any other, but the advocate who helps us understand the truth, and who speaks for God and for us, if we do not know what to pray. The spiritism spoken of in the Bible refers to contacting spirits of the dead, earthly spirits, nature spirits, demons or fallen angels--or "gods" who are just made up. We are not supposed to fall under the influence of these beings, or worship them as part of God.
As for whether Christianity is a religion or not, it is, of course. However, many Christians see it in a different light, that our spirituality comes first, and our practice of religion begins in the heart and in our daily lives. Religion is viewed as the group worship of God, and our building of a way to teach the truth and to find better ways to seek after more truth. There is no central Christian figurehead or body which determines how our spirituality is practiced, or not one that we have an address for.
Christ is the ultimate authority, and anyone who obeys him and teaches others to do so is a Christian leader. But there is no list of these people that we could go to to check for sure, the way the Roman Catholics have a pope and body of cardinals.
It's not really a religion based on our best judgement of the way things should be, and we don't decide who the leaders or spirits are. We take the Bible as an authority, and the Holy Spirit helps us to know the truth, rather than just relying on our own best judgement or instinct. Our instincts are ultimately fallible, since we are human.
re: the threefold law:
I think it's somewhat comparable to:
Luke 6:37-38
37 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
With the whole wheat flour that people in the Middle East used, when it was measured in the marketplace, a container would be filled with flour, then shaken to pack the contents and get the air out. Then more flour would be put on top of that, and more shaking and settling. In this example, there is also as much flour as can be put on top, and more until it spills over in the robe of the recipient. In other words, you get back the behavior you give out, so be generous and forgiving, rather than dealing out evil or being neglectful. Kind of the same as the threefold law, kind of like the law of Karma too.
Invincible121
25-03-04, 14:44
As Mystery once pointed out, possibly in another thread so you may not have seen it, at least some of the "witches" were Christians who were (falsely) accused of witchcraft, and they refused to confess.
I realise that, Eowyn, which is why I put the ' ' around the word witches. If I meant that they were all actual witches I would have left the ' ' off.
EowynHalliwell
25-03-04, 15:32
Okay, I. I thought you meant that only the 'Christians' considered them witches, that other people woudn't have, just because they practiced some Pagan rites. Which I guess they didn't.
That's a good bible quote, the kids in the fire one. Of course the bad Christians didn't consider the good ones to be 'children' or brothers and sisters in spirit, so they didn't think they were disobeying Scripture. I'm going to guess that's a technicality in God's eyes.
"You shall not suffer a witch to live", is one of those Old Testament commandments that seem to be overruled by the New Testament instruction. I guess someone who practices witchcraft just gets tossed out of church and told not to come back till they've mended their ways. Actually I have not yet heard of a Christian who has been caught practicing witchcraft in modern times, though I'm sure it's happened.
To I think her name was Ashley, I feel I should apoligise if I made you feel like i was attacking you. I am sorry that I did you wrong...
BUT THERE SHOULD BE NO AAROGANCE IN THAT. LOVE SHOULD NOT BOAST AND I DID. I truly feel humbled by this experience. Thank you all for reminding me the easiest part of it all. love the lord your god with all your heart. LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR as you would yourself. Much love wiccan and christians alike.
Payableondeath, I appreciate the apology, but it honestly wasn't needed. Attcking me isn't the problem. I get that all the time. But I do appreciate the sentiment.
Let me generalize here for a minute, if it's permitted. The problem that many people have with Christians (in general) is often the way that they come across. Your original post did not come across as loving the sinner. It came across as condemnation in general and that's why it provoked such a strong response. By going in and telling people that they are going to hell for their beliefs, it immediately indicates hate. You say that was not your original intent, and from your recent post, I actually do believe that. However, after being questioned, you went straight to the kind of language that turns people away.
The other problem is that spouting verses does not add up to proof. Those who don't believe in the Bible in the first place won't be convinced by seeing verses from it. The problem lies in the source just as much as the message, and that's the real war to be fought here.
If you plan to stick around, there are interesting debates that could occur without getting crazy. Did Jesus hold to Wiccan beliefs so much that he actually could be called a Wiccan? Many Christians hold the belief that God is in everything, just as many Wiccans do. How are the views different?
We could go on this for forever. No damnations are needed in order to get a good discussion going. Sometimes, a subtle discussion is all that's needed.
pyrokinesis
09-04-04, 16:50
Actually i'm Christian and i don't have anything against Wiccans.I respect their religion.I DO believe in magick.By the way,Jesus wasn't a magician,in Christianity He was the Saviour.You know,that's why he was put to the cross.He saved people from their sins.
Oh yeah i forgot to add something.....the person who started this thread must've been out of her/his mind...he/she is comparing Christianity to Wicca...I know that Wicca isn't evil...unless you use it to be evil.I think Wiccans are actually cool... ;)
Piperangel07
01-06-04, 14:39
I have read everyones opinions and that is exactly what they are OPINIONS! Everyone is entitled to them. I believe everyone can worship as they please. I hope everyone finds peace with whatever God or Goddess or whatever divinty you worship. This has gone on long enough. Just because you question someone's religion doesn't mean you are persecuting them.You are asking a question and requestig an answer. I am sick of this talk about contradicton, persecution, and bringing up the past!!! I don't care what anyone writes about my comments because most ( i indeed said most) of you are acting like a child would bring up a broken doll 10 years in the future! None of us were around at the beginning of Paganism or Christianity, so do we really know all about them? Probably not And before anyone asks i am not telling what religion i am because it doesn't matter! We are discussing opinions, not facts!
oOo_Piper_oOo
01-06-04, 17:12
For the Christianity being Monotheism, I happen to disagree, hehe :$
I think it's polytheism. You have God, and Jesus, more than one, lol :laugh:
Also you have all the saints, prophets, disciples, ect.
Actually we believe in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. We believe there is 1 God in 3 persons. So we only believe in 1 God. Just tthought I should let you know.
I'm glad that you posted this. I'm not sure what to believe but I like it that we can compare. Thanks!
+Blessed Be+
oOo_Piper_oOo
Thunderstorm
02-06-04, 00:08
Actually we believe in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. We believe there is 1 God in 3 persons. So we only believe in 1 God. Just tthought I should let you know.
I'm glad that you posted this. I'm not sure what to believe but I like it that we can compare. Thanks!
+Blessed Be+
oOo_Piper_oOo
Well... some of us Wiccans have that to.
Sure... we worship a lot of different Gods and Goddesses but we believe it's all a part of the same Devine.
And this Devine can take on any form we please, like Artemis, Kali, Hecate, Pan, Diana, Zeus, Ares...
But they're still really many forms of the same Devine.
oOo_Piper_oOo
02-06-04, 14:01
Well... some of us Wiccans have that to.
Sure... we worship a lot of different Gods and Goddesses but we believe it's all a part of the same Devine.
And this Devine can take on any form we please, like Artemis, Kali, Hecate, Pan, Diana, Zeus, Ares...
But they're still really many forms of the same Devine.
Oh. I'm new to the Wiccan religion. Well actually i can't be Wiccan if I'm Christian. Thanks for telling me! I love learning new stuff about this topic!!! :D
Well actually magic is EVIL EVIL EVIL it's the work of the DEVIL and you guys shouldn't be messing around with that crap just because you see it on t.v. doesn't mean it's good and that you should practice it.:shout: The actors on Charmed really doesn't have those powers you know that don't you:dis: I will pray for you all!!!
Thats stupid its like saying cristianity is Evil its just a religion and according to the bill of rights we can be what Religeon we want By the way have you ever herd of the three fold law it really isnt evil you need to check your facts before you start talking trash like that by the way what are you doing watching charmed if its "evil" :mad:
by the way what are you doing watching charmed if its "evil" :mad:
Christians can watch the show too. They may think the subject is evil but they can still watch it. It's like I can watch any show that deals with Christianity and still like it. It doesn't mean I'm not going to like a show that deals with Christianity because I'm a Witch!
EowynHalliwell
23-06-04, 08:20
If you're a Christian, you can pretty much watch anything, unless it causes you to sin, or causes another Christian to lose faith or sin. Or I guess if it causes a potential Christian to stop considering Christianity.
I watch Buffy, Charmed, read Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings, and watch the HP and LOTR movies. I don't see that it's causing me to sin, or anyone else, and I enjoy them.
Rogue Vampire
17-10-04, 09:53
I was talking to my R.E teacher and she said it's wrong to watch shows like charmed that include things that could make you sin.
I'll ask my other teacher since he almost bacame a priest!!
I think personally that this thread is gonna cause alot of fights.
A)we are all equal.
B)Catholicism/Christianity does not agree with witchcraft.
"Thou shall not suffer a witch...." i think it went something like that.
Wicca is a modern religion it was created 50years ago by Gerald Gardner.So therefore we can we actually compare it to Christianity? I personally don't think so.
I was talking to my R.E teacher and she said it's wrong to watch shows like charmed that include things that could make you sin.
I'll ask my other teacher since he almost bacame a priest!!
I think personally that this thread is gonna cause alot of fights.
A)we are all equal.
B)Catholicism/Christianity does not agree with witchcraft.
"Thou shall not suffer a witch...." i think it went something like that.
Wicca is a modern religion it was created 50years ago by Gerald Gardner.So therefore we can we actually compare it to Christianity? I personally don't think so.
You THINK it's GOING TO cause a lot of fights? Sweetie, this thread is 12 pages long, it already has caused disagreements and arguments.
And thanks for posting that fact about Catholism and Christianity. It's only been mentioned a zillion other times.
WEplayBYmyRULZ
17-10-04, 18:04
Wicca is a modern religion it was created 50years ago by Gerald Gardner.So therefore we can we actually compare it to Christianity? I personally don't think so.
I'm sorry but I might be wrong, but I thought wiccanism has been around since... well forever. I don't remember where I read it. Can anyone explain?
RebelSaint
17-10-04, 18:10
I'm pretty sure that paganism is often compared to wicca, and that certainly seems to have been around forever, or quite a while anyway.
Wicca was around before 1950, except it wasn't called wicca. The casting of spells and praising gods and goddesses has always been around, but wicca, specifically, with 'rules' and guidelines that has to be followed has been around much less.
ilsaingrid
17-10-04, 19:47
I'm pretty sure that paganism is often compared to wicca, and that certainly seems to have been around forever, or quite a while anyway.
Wicca was around before 1950, except it wasn't called wicca. The casting of spells and praising gods and goddesses has always been around, but wicca, specifically, with 'rules' and guidelines that has to be followed has been around much less.
Yes, and Wicca & Witchcraft can trace their roots back to many centuries before Christ or the bible. For someone acting like an expert, she doesn't really have all of her facts right. ;)
Rogue Vampire
18-10-04, 11:12
Paganism has been around for like forever.Christianity and Wicca have adopted ideas from it.
Wicca has been around for 50 years and was created by Gerald Gardner and he took ideas from Paganism and modernised it let's say.
Yes, and Wicca & Witchcraft can trace their roots back to many centuries before Christ or the bible. For someone acting like an expert, she doesn't really have all of her facts right. ;)
Wicca has not been around forever, it was created 50 years ago.
Paganism has been around for like forever.
Gerald Gardner made it 50 years ago, adopting ideas from Paganism!
RebelSaint
18-10-04, 11:48
Yes, and Wicca & Witchcraft can trace their roots back to many centuries before Christ or the bible. For someone acting like an expert, she doesn't really have all of her facts right. ;)
What facts? I didn't really state any facts, at least none that are set in stone. I didn't set out to act like an 'expert' or anything like that and if it sounded like that, then it wasn't intended.
And what did you say that was entirely different to what I said? *is mad and confused*
You just said the same thing that I did.
ilsaingrid
18-10-04, 14:52
What facts? I didn't really state any facts, at least none that are set in stone. I didn't set out to act like an 'expert' or anything like that and if it sounded like that, then it wasn't intended.
And what did you say that was entirely different to what I said? *is mad and confused*
You just said the same thing that I did.
No, no, no _bLeSsEd_Be_ - that comment was NOT aimed at you. It was aimed at...well, someone else. I have no problem with your statements at all.
And fine - be anal about details. "Witchcraft" has been around for centuries. Wicca is a variation on it. If you try to agrue that, well.... remember that "witches" were mentioned in the bible, as well as in Shakespearian plays written in the 1500-1600's.
/me leaves this thread before being assaulted...
Thunderstorm
27-10-04, 04:14
And fine - be anal about details. "Witchcraft" has been around for centuries. Wicca is a variation on it.
Just to clairify, Wicca isn't a variation of Witchcraft since the magick part is not the main part of Wiccanism.
The main part of Wiccanism is the religious side, not all Wiccans are Witches.
Also, some things in general for you all:
Paganism is a collective name for a bunch of different religious groups outside the "allmighty-god" religions.
So Paganism is not one distinctive religion.
Wiccanism is a part of Paganism.
A lot of people around here seem to be talking about Witchcraft when they think they're talking about Wiccanism.
Witchcraft have been around for a very long time, along with many Pagan religious systems.
The Goddess religions seem to be one of the first documented religious believes ever.
(The little Goddess 'venus' doll was the first documented occurance of devine worship, the worship of women.)
Also Shamanism is one of the oldest practicies in the whole world.
Getting back on the topic: I believe that Witches and Christians could see eye to eye, since the first Christians lived alongside the Pagan religions without being as judgemental as some people are today.
I believe that each persons believes are scared and holy.
Whoever you believe in you should be able to honour said diety, God, Goddess or whatever as long as it doesn't hurt anyone.
Unfortunately a lot of Christians have a very extreme view of what is right and wrong, and I don't believe we can change anyting by calling each other evil.
Blessings,
ilsaingrid
27-10-04, 05:36
Just to clairify, Wicca isn't a variation of Witchcraft since the magick part is not the main part of Wiccanism.
The main part of Wiccanism is the religious side, not all Wiccans are Witches.
However, if Witchcraft had not existed, Wicca would never have existed either. Wicca was created using the basics of Witchcraft, but without the "magick," right? So wouldn't that be considered a variation?
Rogue Vampire
27-10-04, 11:08
If witchcraft had not exsisted, then Paganism wouldn't exsist and then Wicca wouldn't have the ideas it has, because Gardner took ideas from Paganism to make Wicca.
bb Rogue
EowynHalliwell
27-10-04, 16:02
Here is something on Wiccans and forgiveness:
http://www.serpentstone.org/article...eness_text.html
Thanks. I liked reading that.
_______________
Just to clairify, Wicca isn't a variation of Witchcraft since the magick part is not the main part of Wiccanism.
The main part of Wiccanism is the religious side, not all Wiccans are Witches
Thanks for that too. I hear so many people say that Wicca has been around for so very long, but it was called Witchcraft.
BTW, the "almighty God" (lol) religions you speak of are the Abramic religions since the accounts of Jehovah start with Abraham.
the first Christians lived alongside the Pagan religions without being as judgemental as some people are today.
The Roman Pagans persecuted the Christians from pretty early on. The Christians are only supposed to judge other Christians, as to whether they live up to their words. If a person calls him or herself a Christian, but is abusive or continually in sin, they are a liar, and just the sort of person who is not saved. If someone who does not refer to self as a Christian, but is a drunkard, wife or husband beater, cheats on taxes, shoots heroin--whatever--a Christian can only say the behavior is harmful. There are some exceptions.
But condemnation of harmful behavior, sin and unbelief has been around since Christ started preaching and is considered legitimate.
Also, there are pretty many Christians living alongside their nonChristian neighbors in peace. You just don't hear about them because people in general tend to focus on the negative.
KuKu4Wikka
27-10-04, 16:31
I've had to defend Wicca to my very Catholic relatives, although I tend to avoid arguing with the older ones, as they tend to yell with spittle and hand flying and eyes widening and I wouldn't like to be the cause for them to keel over and have a heartattack.
Anyways... I told my mother that didn't nessicarily want to have my Confirmation, seeing as I was interested in Wicca. Of course, my mom 'gently urged' (said I had to) have Confirmation, and if I wanted to change my religion when I was older, so be it.
Apparently, my mother told my Aunt that I was interested in Wicca and my aunt called it a pile of crap, and that I shouldn't be thinking about stuff like that.
Wow, very open minded.
Although, I do know plenty of Catholics and/or Christians who are very gentle and open minded, and who would LIKE for you to choose what you best believe in.
I dunno, I love the idea of Wicca, but I'm scared of changing religions.
Anyhoo, to what ya'll are saying (as I've extensively researched this subject): Paganism has been around for centuries, seeing as it's the basis of many sub-religions of it... and Wicca was just created 50 years ago by Gardener, though it's my belief that he is the one who wrote down the guidlines, and perhaps others had followed a loosely translated type of Wicca in earlier dates.
That's my two cents. Take of it as you will.
RebelSaint
27-10-04, 16:45
I don't want to be labelled, which is why I don't belong to any religion. It doesn't mean that I don't believe in anything, it's just I'd rather believe what I believe, and not echo the beliefs of other people.
KuKu, if you want to change religions (for whatever reason), then you should do it. I mean, no one can tell you what to believe, right?
KuKu4Wikka
27-10-04, 17:42
That is a very good philosophy, Helen.
Too bad my resolve isn't as strong as yours.
Of course, theoretically, I can choose my own religon, and my mom says I can RESEARCH Wicca, but she refuses to let me delay (or even completely drop out of) Confirmation, the final stage of dedication to God. And then I'd feel horrible if I end up going to Wicca, for pledging myself for a different god.
And also, no matter how I believe in the Goddess and the God, I sorta fear the Catholic God. I mean, he means to rip the world in ruins sometime, and he looks like a fearsome beast.
So, I feel trapped.
RebelSaint
27-10-04, 17:59
Lucky for me, my parents display zero religious tendancies whatsoever - so it's basically up to me.
Which means that I can't relate to you with this Alex. I mean, my Grandma occasionally calls me a blasphemer (which I find more funny than imposing), but she knows as well as I do that the day I start worrying about God, is the day that Satan will be ice skating to work.
I still think it's up to you, and that you should explain to your Catholic family to back off, and let you make a decision that your happy with.
But much more...diplomatically put, I think.
EowynHalliwell
27-10-04, 18:07
I was raised Catholic, but didn't want to be confirmed either. I hadn't any other religion in mind, just resented the meaninglessness.
You will probably scare the heck out of them, and some of their friends and family too. If you really feel to go Wicca, do it. But you can study in private, if you want. If you are looking for the truth, you will find it.
I went ahead and got confirmed, as I sort of had nothing else to do, but later on I looked for God on my own. I liked it when people stood up for the truth, and I liked having a kind God who would only terrify me as a last resort to stop me from doing harm to myself (or others).
KuKu4Wikka
27-10-04, 18:49
Lucky for me, my parents display zero religious tendancies whatsoever - so it's basically up to me.
I find that both fortunate, and unfortunate. One of the things I dislike about my families religious tendencies was that it confined (or, is confining) my exploration of who I am. It, of course, would be easier for you to develop your personality and tendencies and religions on your own.
The fortunate thing about my family's religious tendancies that because of them, we are a rather tight-knit family... in a way. Praying every night brings us together, as does X-Mas, where me and my sister have our own little quirks and traditions we do together. <-- (Which, is one of the reasons I'm hesitant to change religions)
You will probably scare the heck out of them, and some of their friends and family too. If you really feel to go Wicca, do it. But you can study in private, if you want. If you are looking for the truth, you will find it.
My mother was sorta shocked and dissappointed when I had originally expressed an interest in Wicca. I had asked her to purchase "The Book of Shadows for a Solitary Witch". She agreed to buy it for me, but with a warning that she would burn it if I started acting like a witch, she would burn it. For a while, I studied in private, only confiding in my best friend and cousin, Noelle.
Afterwards, once I had her attend a therapy session and explained to her why I was so reluntant to share with her my views and opinions. She agreed that I could explore, but that I had to give a far chance to Catholicism and get Confirmed. We agreed NOTNOTNOT to tell my dad, as his family was overzealous with religion, and he would probably drag me to some priest to get my exocised. Now, my dad is laid-back in some ways, but schoolwork, boys, and religion are certaintly not parts of it.
I am studying in semi-private now, but as you did, I will probably need to become Confirmed. Hopefully, I will eventually reach a decision- one decision would disappoint my family, and one decision would disappoint me.
Meteoramonk
03-12-04, 18:45
The writing in the bible that is often cited to condemn witchcraft accually refers to poisoners.
What many Christians fail to remember is that Christianity is a very freaky religion. Christian were persecuted in the early days because Roman citizens were terrified of them. Christians met in secret, revered an instrument of torture, talked about death and drinkin blood, and expected brimstone
Today, with Christianity holding as much power as it has, it has become lost. Personally, I blame Constantine, maybe Paul, definately the Romans.
Although I have no intention of leaving my faith, I have found the study of other religious traditions facinating--I've learned a lot about etymology.
Based on what I've learned, wicca is psuedomonotheistic, in the same sense as Hinduism. That's cool. I also know it is definately not Satanism.
Quick note: Satanists do not worship the Satan recognized by Christians. Kinda weird.
The only problems I have with wicca are the idols.
EowynHalliwell
04-12-04, 13:27
The writing in the bible that is often cited to condemn witchcraft accually refers to poisoners.
'Pharmakeia, the Greek word in the New Testament, refers to drug abusers who would go into a drug induced state to contact spiritual entities. It does not refer to poisoners. The Hebrew words in the Old Testament that refer to witch and witchcraft mean just that. If you care to sift through this thread, you'll find our source (I believe is Abby) who is not Christian and who does speak Hebrew.
Galatians 5
19-The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21-and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
The use of potions, spells and incantations, the consultation or contact with elemental spirits or spirits who are not from Christ, cauldrons, sacred days of power, etc. are not called for by Christ or any credible Christian or branch of the religion thereof. In fact Jesus said not to touch the items of worship of non-Abramic religious origin. Any spirit contact with a spirit which is not sent by Christ is forbidden.
What many Christians fail to remember is that Christianity is a very freaky religion. Christian were persecuted in the early days because Roman citizens were terrified of them. Christians met in secret, revered an instrument of torture, talked about death and drinkin blood, and expected brimstone
Christians were suspected of these things, but of course did not practice them. Roman officials did not understand how Christianity was really practiced, and this new religion was not legal since it was not officially registered with the state, and did not admit the Emperor as God. That's why the persecution.
I doubt that too many Christians are unaware of these facts, and I've certainly never heard of a study that supported the idea that many Christians are unaware that it was persecuted because of the mention of Christ's body and blood being drunk.
Today, with Christianity holding as much power as it has, it has become lost. Personally, I blame Constantine, maybe Paul, definately the Romans.
I wish people would understand that Roman Catholicism and the true worshipers of Christ who actually practice of Christianity are NOTone and the same as those who go to a Church that claims it is Christian. Christianity only has so much power in the world, and certainly many who say they are Christian or saved actually practice a religion that is against Christianity.
It is the anti-Christian types who gain a great deal of power, influence and reputation in the world.
Although I have no intention of leaving my faith, I have found the study of other religious traditions facinating--I've learned a lot about etymology.
Based on what I've learned, wicca is psuedomonotheistic, in the same sense as Hinduism. That's cool. I also know it is definately not Satanism.
Quick note: Satanists do not worship the Satan recognized by Christians. Kinda weird.
The only problems I have with wicca are the idols.
Yeah the Satanist thing is kind of weird. I hadn't heard what you said before. Some of Satanism is just a front for oraganized crime.
well i better not say anything because im wiccan......
ilsaingrid
04-12-04, 17:30
well i better not say anything because im wiccan......
What is the point of saying you better not say anything? If you truly feel that way, why did you post anything at all?
I am a former Catholic who is now studying Wicca. I tried, after many years of not going, to go to church again, and it just didn't feel right. I went every week as a child, and even had CCD classes (don't ask me what that stands for - I don't remember anymore) once a week, but I just don't feel that it's the right thing for me. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to tell anyone else what to believe. To each his own, as the saying goes.
Satanism is sometimes used as a front for organized crime? I've never heard that one before. Can you be more specific?
Thunderstorm
05-12-04, 04:45
Satanists do not worship Satan, nor is it just a front for organized crime.
Satanists believe that you should put yourself before others and your bodys pleasure before your soul (hence the use of the inverted pentagram; body over spirit. The right turned pentagram stands for spirit over body). Stanists usually don't kil cats and burn churches, this is usually the work of devil worshipers and has got nothing to do with Satanism.
There... education hour is over, ya wanna know more? look it up.
As for the whole Christianity versus Wicca deal.
Well... Christians believe in a dutty old book which has been re-written a LOT of times. They are very selective in what they accept since there are gospels pointing out that Mary Magdalene, the so-called prostitute, was a part of the inner circle of Christ and therefor the precious apostels were 13.
Personally I don't have anything against good-ol Jesus. I do doubt that he would condemn anyone to hell or whatnot. I believe that, if he would have been alive today he'd be a pagan, vegan anc pacifist, and he most cirtanly wouldn't vote for mr Bush.
Jesus preached of love, I don't care if the bible tells us he was the son of an allmighty loving God who will send you to a flaming heck if you do not believe in him and who won't save goodhearted Pagans from the flames but will accept newly "saved" serial killers into heaven because they have changed their ways and now believe in God and Jesus.
I myself used to be a Christian and I never once believed that there was a hell or that Jesus wouldn't love me if I made one itty bitty mistake. I never thought that Muslims, Hindus or Buddhists were WRONG, just that their truth was different from mine. I drove the priests nuts and eventually I realized I wasn't really wellcome anymore so I turned to Paganism and I never felt better in my life, and I've never really had a better connection to Jesus in my life either.
That's my rants for now...
Thunderstorm says bye bye!
/me waves and goes off to make some lunch
EowynHalliwell
08-12-04, 11:46
What is the point of saying you better not say anything? If you truly feel that way, why did you post anything at all?
I am a former Catholic who is now studying Wicca. I tried, after many years of not going, to go to church again, and it just didn't feel right. I went every week as a child, and even had CCD classes (don't ask me what that stands for - I don't remember anymore) once a week, but I just don't feel that it's the right thing for me. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to tell anyone else what to believe. To each his own, as the saying goes.
Satanism is sometimes used as a front for organized crime? I've never heard that one before. Can you be more specific?
Yep, there are people who lure unstable teens into prostitution, drug-dealing and theft. They put out that there is a Black Mass and that it'll be fun, the kids come and they're recruited to earn money for the leaders. In large cities there are lots of kids who are raised very very badly--mom and her seven ex-husbands were all into drugs, beating the kids, verbally, emotionally and sexually abusing the kids, neglecting them in all kinds of ways. The kids are subjected to the usual seasoning that pimps use: gang rape while forcibly drugged drugged and they are told that if they try to tell, no one will believe them and that they'll be killed is they try to escape or go to the police. These people have no morals, and they just do things for money and the fun of having control over people. They are often tattooed or branded so if they do try to run away or disobey, they can be more easily be caught. Pimps cooperate with each other whether it is a fake religion, a street gang or an individual owner that owns the slave/hooker/victim. Again, this is just one form that organized crime sometimes takes, not necessarily a staple of Satanism.
If you think that's far-fetched, remember that there are some religions over the years that profess to be oriented around good or positive spiritual leaders and prophets (Jesus, Buddha, the Goddess, etc.), who have been found to have groups within them that are using the religion as a cover for illegal activity. In Italy there have been Roman Catholic priests who have been arrested for embezzlement, and I know in my own city there is one seminary that has been called a "brothel". I don't doubt that that's at least partly true.
By the way, I said this a few pages back, but I'll say it again for anyone who doesn't feel like digging through. I was raised Catholic, but gradually became disillusioned with every thing I'd been taught. I went through 13 1/2 years of Roman Catholic education. There is so much that is against what Christ taught in the Catholic religion, that many many Christian denominations refuse to accept that it is a Christian organization. To state one obvious and large flaw, Jesus told his apostles "let no man call you father". But the since Saint Paul in one of his letters told the person that he wrote to "I am your spiritual Father", the RC church thought that that was enough to disobey a direct commandment from God himself (Jesus is considered God, the Son by Catholics). Jesus said that one of the qualities of hypocrites is that they take spiritual principles and make them into dogma. So every priest must be addessed as 'Father', and even the priest themselves must at some times call their fellow priests Father. Wnen I was in school, they emphasized that we are saved by grace, and that grace was acquired only through the Sacraments.
In fact it was regarded an unforgivable sin to not go to mass on a holy day of obligation, which included every Sunday and certain other appointed days, such as Ash Wednesday. This is not even what St. Paul says, and they used his words to justify defying Christ's direct commandment. But the unforgivable sin can be forgiven in the Sacrament of Confession, according to the Catholic church, if the priest decides to grant absolution. They usually do for anything minor.
The idea that salvation depends on the individual's behavior is considered quite untrue by most branches of Christianity.
The Church of Latter-Day Saints (Mormon Church) is another church that believes it is Christian, but not considered so by the rest of the Christian denominations.
Anyway, there are so many mistakes and twisted practices in the Catholic Church that I am not surprised people do not find meaning there, and that there are a lot of Catholics who like their religion, because they can go to church, participate in some activities and generally snooze through an easy and lukewarm life and enjoy the feeling that they are saved. If they feel disturbed by the idea that Protestants oppose their teachings, they enjoy the (false) feeling that they are martyrs for the cause.
miss spitfire
08-12-04, 12:47
i am of no religion, but over the years ive battled between wicca and christianity. of course i never know the real rules and worship of them; i only believe in several ideas they hold. I believe in the three fold and reincarnation and karma; and i believe in one god and the bible.
Honestly, i could go either way. But I will always believe in God or Gods no matter what. I don't know what that makes me.
:uhh: :confused:
EowynHalliwell
08-12-04, 13:29
Yep, there are people who lure unstable teens into prostitution, drug-dealing and theft. They put out that there is a Black Mass and that it'll be fun, the kids come and they're recruited to earn money for the leaders. In large cities there are lots of kids who are raised very very badly--mom and her seven ex-husbands were all into drugs, beating the kids, verbally, emotionally and sexually abusing the kids, neglecting them in all kinds of ways. The kids are subjected to the usual seasoning that pimps use: gang rape while forcibly drugged drugged and they are told that if they try to tell, no one will believe them and that they'll be killed is they try to escape or go to the police. These people have no morals, and they just do things for money and the fun of having control over people. They are often tattooed or branded so if they do try to run away or disobey, they can be more easily be caught. Pimps cooperate with each other whether it is a fake religion, a street gang or an individual owner that owns the slave/hooker/victim. Again, this is just one form that organized crime sometimes takes, not necessarily a staple of Satanism.
If you think that's far-fetched, remember that there are some religions over the years that profess to be oriented around good or positive spiritual leaders and prophets (Jesus, Buddha, the Goddess, etc.), who have been found to have groups within them that are using the religion as a cover for illegal activity. In Italy there have been Roman Catholic priests who have been arrested for embezzlement, and I know in my own city there is one seminary that has been called a "brothel". I don't doubt that that's at least partly true.
By the way, I said this a few pages back, but I'll say it again for anyone who doesn't feel like digging through. I was raised Catholic, but gradually became disillusioned with every thing I'd been taught. I went through 13 1/2 years of Roman Catholic education. There is so much that is against what Christ taught in the Catholic religion, that many many Christian denominations refuse to accept that it is a Christian organization. To state one obvious and large flaw, Jesus told his apostles "let no man call you father". But since Saint Paul in one of his letters told the person that he wrote to "I am your spiritual Father", the RC church thought that that was enough to disobey a direct commandment from God himself (Jesus is considered God, the Son by Catholics). Jesus said that one of the qualities of hypocrites is that they take spiritual principles and make them into dogma. So every priest must be addessed as 'Father', and even the priest themselves must at some times call their fellow priests Father. Wnen I was in school, they emphasized that we are saved by grace, and that grace was acquired only through the Sacraments.
In fact it was regarded an unforgivable sin to not go to mass on a holy day of obligation, which included every Sunday and certain other appointed days, such as Ash Wednesday. This is not even what St. Paul says, and they used his words to justify defying Christ's direct commandment. But the unforgivable sin can be forgiven in the Sacrament of Confession, according to the Catholic church, if the priest decides to grant absolution. They usually do for anything minor.
The idea that salvation depends on the individual's behavior is considered quite untrue by most branches of Christianity.
The Church of Latter-Day Saints (Mormon Church) is another church that believes it is Christian, but not considered so by the rest of the Christian denominations.
Anyway, there are so many mistakes and twisted practices in the Catholic Church that I am not surprised people do not find meaning there, and that there are a lot of Catholics who like their religion, because they can go to church, participate in some activities and generally snooze through an easy and lukewarm life and enjoy the feeling that they are saved. If they feel disturbed by the idea that Protestants oppose their teachings, they enjoy the (false) feeling that they are martyrs for the cause.
_______________________________________________
Thunderstorm, I guess you're talking about my statement that SOME Satanism is just a cover for organized crime, I'm going to point out that I said SOME, not all. Why you'd say that Satanism is not a cover for organized crime, I don't know. But some of it is. If you have evidence that it never is, I'd like to hear it. I also don't get why you think Satanists don't worship Satan, since it seems obvious that the Devil, Satan and Lucifer are generally considered the object of worship in Satanism. I'd like to hear the explanation for that. I can believe that SOME who are considered Satanists don't worship Satan, but I cannot see how that blanket statement could be true.
And if you're not willing to support what you said, I'm not going to be willing to look it up; those two statements seem quite erroneous. If you're not willing to support them, why would I want to look long and hard for something that probably isn't there.
Christians believe in a dutty old book which has been re-written a LOT of times. They are very selective in what they accept since there are gospels pointing out that Mary Magdalene, the so-called prostitute, was a part of the inner circle of Christ and therefor the precious apostels were 13.
The Bible has not been rewritten many times. The Hebrew of the Old Testament is still spoken today by Israeli citizens. None of the events or philosophy have changed. There may be some disagreement from time to time of the exact translation from Hebrew to German, English, Spanish, Russian, but the basic text is the same. There is a set of commentaries that help to explain this this part of the Bible, that have been around for centuries and centuries. This commentary is called the Talmud, and was of course written by Jews, who believe Scripture to be sacred and do not change one word of it. The students of Scripture learn it word by word, exactly as it has been learned by generations of
Hebrew men and boys since since the various books of it have been written. Now I believe females are getting full time.
As far as the New Testament goes, the Dead Sea Scrolls are some of the earliest known translations of the books and letters of the NT, and they do not disagree in any major way with what's been handed down from the early church. The gospels, epistles, book of Revelations & whatever else have been not been rewritten, unless you count some cranks who were not paid attention to by most Christians, and certainly not paid attention to by church authorities except to condemn them.
Christians believe in a dutty old book which has been re-written a LOT of times.
Dutty? That sounds like a slang word I've never heard, or a typo. It's not in Merriam-Webster's online dictionary, and I can't think of a similar sounding word that would make sense in that context. So how are we supposed to know what's being said here.
They are very selective in what they accept since there are gospels pointing out that Mary Magdalene, the so-called prostitute, was a part of the inner circle of Christ and therefor the precious apostels were 13.
It would be stupid to give credit to every word ever written about Christ or his apostles or friends, family and followers. The Gospel of Thomas is a good example. It includes miracles performed by a young and mischievious Jesus, long before what is regarded as his first miracle (the changing of water to wine).
Thunderstorm
08-12-04, 14:02
_______________________________________________
Thunderstorm, I guess you're talking about my statement that SOME Satanism is just a cover for organized crime, I'm going to point out that I said SOME, not all. Why you'd say that Satanism is not a cover for organized crime, I don't know. But some of it is. If you have evidence that it never is, I'd like to hear it. I also don't get why you think Satanists don't worship Satan, since it seems obvious that the Devil, Satan and Lucifer are generally considered the object of worship in Satanism. I'd like to hear the explanation for that. I can believe that SOME who are considered Satanists don't worship Satan, but I cannot see how that blanket statement could be true.
And if you're not willing to support what you said, I'm not going to be willing to look it up; those two statements seem quite erroneous. If you're not willing to support them, why would I want to look long and hard for something that probably isn't there.
I was personally referring to Satanism in general, which is not just a cover up for organized crime. Organized crime comes in many shapes, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are cover ups in the shape of Christian cults as well, so I guess we misunderstood eachother.
I can only find information in Swedish on this short notice, but I think that this is pretty much a description of what I am pointing at, I could try to find something clearer later on. I putted my pharsing kind of shitty though, what I basically ment was that Satanists do not worship THE DEVIL. They don't believe there is such a thing, the word Satan to them isn't THE DEVIL, but the dark forces of nature.
Satan is not a real, living entity, conscious or a physical thing that can be interacted with. It is a symbol, something ethereal, something that basically doesn't exist except as an emotional attachment and personal dream. Just like Buddhists do not worship Buddha, Satanists hold up Satan as an ultimate principal rather than an object of literal worship. Satan inspires and provokes people, like all (honest) religions the ultimate point is self-help. God believers have a different opinion on what Satan is, but their opinion is a result of their religion. Satanism's Satan is much more eclectic and multicultural than to be defined by Christianity or Islam.
From HERE (http://www.dpjs.co.uk/serpent.html) . There ya go.
ETA: okay... I just saw the rest of your post and I believe that the bible is pretty unreliable since it is colored by the people who have written it and furthermore our Swedish version of the bible is re-written a billion times. Sure... there might be people who read hebrew and are reading the original texts, but I'm not of them so I ain't very trusting.
And yes, it is very stupid to accept everything written about christ, but how can you know Thomas wasn't the one who's right?? Just asking.
I'll get back to you another time cause my mother needs to sleep and I'm bothering her with my typing, nice chatting with you.
/me leaves
EowynHalliwell
08-12-04, 14:34
I was personally referring to Satanism in general, which is not just a cover up for organized crime. Organized crime comes in many shapes, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are cover ups in the shape of Christian cults as well, so I guess we misunderstood eachother.
I can only find information in Swedish on this short notice, but I think that this is pretty much a description of what I am pointing at, I could try to find something clearer later on. I putted my pharsing kind of shitty though, what I basically ment was that Satanists do not worship THE DEVIL. They don't believe there is such a thing, the word Satan to them isn't THE DEVIL, but the dark forces of nature.
From HERE (http://www.dpjs.co.uk/serpent.html) . There ya go.
What I said was that some some Satanism is a coverup for organized crime. I meant what I said, and said what I meant. If you're Swedish, then it's just a language problem, not a problem with the concept, so I'll drop it.
It is impossible to prove or disprove whether there is a God or not, and just as impossible to prove the existence or nonexistence of Satan. Satan is another name of Lucifer, the fallen Angel of Light. Angels are also spiritual beings, so you can't prove he exists or doesn't.
I don't completely accept the opinion of the person who thinks that no Satan worshippers worship Satan or believe he actually exists. That's just an opinion, and I'm pretty sure you can find Satanists who really believe in Satan and worship Satan. They probably do also believe in doing whatever they feel like doing, that they believe the body should overrule the spirit. Maybe some believe there is not really a Satan, that he's just a concept, but some do. Again, maybe it's just the lanquage problem.
As far as everyone being saved, Jesus himself said there are people who will go to Hell, in fact many of them who call themselves Christians. But I don't think it's just his choice. He himself chose Judas to be an Apostle, but God, who knows the hearts of all people completely, told Jesus that Judas was not really a believer and that he would be the betrayer who would turn Jesus over to the Gentiles. Christ of course knew that this was part of the plan of Salvation from the beginning.
It is more the choice of those who refuse to trust Jesus, who insist on keeping their own life full of negative thoughts and feelings and making them worse, which condemns them. Jesus did not come to the world to condemn, but to save. But you can't save those who do not want to be saved.
I know it hurts to think they will be thrown in hell, but these are evil people who will never really turn to doing good things and really caring for people. There really are people who are incredibly hateful, and purposefully set out to make other people even more miserable than they are. Anyone like that does not belong in the afterlife, causing havoc and spreading more hate. Noone who deserves Heaven will go to hell. That is why Jesus came, not to save those who have always been very good, but to convince those who are lost and out of contact with God because of the very evil works of those who refuse to let themselves be led to salvation.
By the way, about the opinion of those who believe there is a personal God, and who believe there really is such a person as Satan, it may be that some believe because they trust the teachings of their church, and some who SAY they believe, but it's because they have been given a faulty set of teachings, and would rather believe the wrong teachings. Or they believe just because they've been told God is real. many many times.
But there are some who believe because they have literally encountered Christ and miracles, Demons and evil, or they know and believe someone who has. OR they have discovered that their church and it's followers are truly honest, in their experience.
I was personally referring to Satanism in general, which is not just a cover up for organized crime. Organized crime comes in many shapes, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are cover ups in the shape of Christian cults as well, so I guess we misunderstood eachother.
I can only find information in Swedish on this short notice, but I think that this is pretty much a description of what I am pointing at, I could try to find something clearer later on. I putted my pharsing kind of shitty though, what I basically ment was that Satanists do not worship THE DEVIL. They don't believe there is such a thing, the word Satan to them isn't THE DEVIL, but the dark forces of nature.
From HERE (http://www.dpjs.co.uk/serpent.html) . There ya go.
ETA: okay... I just saw the rest of your post and I believe that the bible is pretty unreliable since it is colored by the people who have written it and furthermore our Swedish version of the bible is re-written a billion times. Sure... there might be people who read hebrew and are reading the original texts, but I'm not of them so I ain't very trusting.
And yes, it is very stupid to accept everything written about christ, but how can you know Thomas wasn't the one who's right?? Just asking.
I'll get back to you another time cause my mother needs to sleep and I'm bothering her with my typing, nice chatting with you.
* Thunderstorm leaves
Sorry I didn't get to finish my post on Thomas. One of the miracles goes thusly:
"Jesus was a little boy, playing with his friends, and he decided to push one off the rooftop where they were playing. The boy died in the fall, and one of the other children ran and told Joseph, Jesus' father. Joseph went to Jesus and asked him whether this was true. Jesus replied that he didn't kill anyone. "
The story goes on to say that this was not a lie, because Jesus brought the dead boy back to life later.
It is a lie though, since for a while the boy was dead, and Jesus in this story caused the death, and bringing him back to life is the right thing to do--but there was no reason to kill the boy in the first place. Various Scripture passages indicate that God has a plan for salvation, and that the timing is very specific for things such as Jesus beginning his public ministry, and the miracles are included in the public ministry which began when he was 30 years old.The other gospels indicate no miracles until then, and certainly none done with a badhearted or mischevious attitude. There are many books banned from the New Testament because they were just books of popular entertainment, rather like fanfiction, just not part of the message Jesus came to spread.
There were many persons who were part of Jesus group of closest friends, including the siblings Martha, Mary and Lazarus. But he only chose 12 men to be his messengers, even though he had many followers who helped spread his teachings and perform healing. None of the four gospels suggest other than that Jesus chose the traditional twelve. I think it's wishful thinking to think there was anyone else, male or female.
There are several Marys in the Bible that I don't know whether Mary Magdelene was the sister of Martha and Lazarus, or a different Mary. But apparently she was an ADULTERER, not a prostitute. Prostitutes are usually adulterers if they've been in business for longer than a five minutes, but adulterers are people who have had sex with someone who is married to someone else, or who are married but not to the person they've had sex with.
There is no reason for me to believe that MM was a 13th apostle. There is ample reason for me to believe she was not.
In any case, although in general women have not been allowed to teach the Gospels in the major denominations, some churches have changed. In any case, anyone who spreads the Gospels, provides encouragement, spreads the truth, etc., is a preacher for the kingdom. How many women have taught the Bible to their children? How many women have brought others to Christ? Many, many. Do women cause some to lose faith in Christ? Absolutely, you are not good or bad just because of your gender.
Jesus pointed out that many in the churches who are now thought to be great will be thought of as not so important in heaven. Many who are taken for granted and considered unimportant now will be thought very important and honored in heaven.
So I'm not worried whether a woman was an considered one of the Apostles at the time Jesus chose the 12. And I am a woman.
LilWarrioress
11-12-04, 14:16
I am Wiccan and have been for almost five months. I read that I am just into it because of Charmed, actually. I was Wiccan before I started watching Charmed again, there isn't anything wrong with Christianity because I was Catholic while growing up and I just wanted to break away from it and I wanted to feel closer to my dad since he was killed when I was barely two months old, he was also Wiccan. I am not evil since I am told that I am from numerous people, if I was evil, I don't think I would like it very much because I am a nice person and my friends agree with me.
I was explaining something about Wicca to a non-Wiccan friend of mine and she said 'Christianity and Wicca have some things in common, don't they?', and I utterly agree. Both religions are built on love and peace, and of course they differ, but one of the earliest teachings of Wicca is that Wicca is right for you, not for everyone, so not everyone will jump on the Wiccan bandwagon. I don't think that we should extol the virtues of either religion because everything has a yin and a yan, a flipside. That's just my view. I'm not saying that I don't wish some people of other faiths could be more open-minded when it came to alternitive religions, but the alternitives faiths have to do the same. I have a very Christian friend who once told me when I was depressed that I was searching for God. When I told her that I believed in God and the Goddess, she told me that she was sad for me, because she knew where I'd go if I refused to believe, and that made me sad, because she's a nice person and a good friend. After that, she quoted me from the Biblke 'Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live'. I informed her that the word witch is a mistranslation from the Latin. It should have been venificor (poisoner) not maleficor (witch). We don't speak anymore.
I just wish that everyone would think more about the effect that fighting over religion has. When my friend stopped talking to me, I felt like scum. I felt like a leper, and it was really hurtful. I still however practise Wicca, because I've always believed that you should do things for yourself, and not other people. I wish that we could have found a way to work things out though.
EowynHalliwell
02-01-05, 12:58
I I have a very Christian friend who once told me when I was depressed that I was searching for God. When I told her that I believed in God and the Goddess, she told me that she was sad for me, because she knew where I'd go if I refused to believe, and that made me sad, because she's a nice person and a good friend. After that, she quoted me from the Biblke 'Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live'. I informed her that the word witch is a mistranslation from the Latin. It should have been venificor (poisoner) not maleficor (witch). We don't speak anymore.
It's part of the Old Testament where you can find that sentence, and the Old Testament is written in Hebrew, not Latin. Your friend is way wrong, sorry. The Bible may have been translated into Latin many years after the OT was written in Hebrew and the New Testament was written in mostly Greek, but the original lanquage tells the real story. In the "Christian Witchcraft" (http://www.thesistersthree.com/forums/showpost.ts3?postid=70346&postcount=180) thread Phoenix says:
מכשפה=witch, no argument, 100%
לא תחיה= will not live.
So, it's pretty much doesn't give room for error. I asked a religious friend of mine, and he thinks that the bible condemns witches. And no, it's not poisoners, witches. I tried it in the dictionary, and the only thing came out screaming is "WITCH". So there, believe whatever version you wish, that's just what's written there, in the bible that people here have such profound knowledge of...
The rumor that poisoners was what was meant in Exodus 22:17 is just that.
I'd also like to say that this statement is a part of a system of rules which Christians are delivered from. Also, though it says in the New Testament that witches (and homosexuals, and others who commit certain sins) will "not inherit the Kingdom of God," what this means is that if they trust Christ to save them, they will still be saved. But if they have gone on sinning and teaching others the wrong way, they will not share in the great rewards that the best Christians will. They'll be in the 'standing room only' section in Heaven, and not given backstage passes, so to speak. That is why Christians are supposed to encourage others not to practice witchcraft, and instead to encourage prayer and communication with God, through Jesus and not trying to reach God through what they do or through God's creations.
[...I just wish that everyone would think more about the effect that fighting over religion has. When my friend stopped talking to me, I felt like scum. I felt like a leper, and it was really hurtful. I still however practise Wicca, because I've always believed that you should do things for yourself, and not other people. I wish that we could have found a way to work things out though.
I feel bad about that. If I did not believe that God would really rather save people whether they do right or wrong or make big mistakes a lot or a little, I might be like that. I don't know your friend, but when she gets to the "big banquet hall in the sky," (if she does) she may well be disappointed and told she was being narrow-minded, selfish, not a good listener and that she just plain does not care that much about people.
Let us also not forget theat Lucifer is NOT the name acredited to the devil in the bible. The name Lucifer originally belonged to a God within the Italian pantheon and the name was distorted by the xtian church.
Not wanting to get tangled in this mess that is going on but I hate inaccuracies about actual history.
I don't think anyone claimed that the Bible used the name of Lucifer for Satan, so there is no inaccuracy there. I think in a post, I said that Satan and Lucifer are two names that are usually meant for the same "angel of Light" who Christ talked about, who fell from heaven.
miss spitfire
02-01-05, 14:50
:uhh:
gosh.
this thread really is controversial and...well...very well debated. :uhh:
hum. like i said, dunno what i am. i am nothing. :D not really. i believe in god. i believe in magick.
missy
VanillaPiper
06-01-05, 12:42
Hi, i am a wiccan and it is not evil!!!, How would you like it if i went around saying God is evil for drowing everyone in flood as it says in the bible and other stuff. And i agree with
Quote:
Yeap...and then Karma comes to bite me in the ass 3 times as worse...that's a reason why it makes it not worth using "curses"
thats totally true i would rather not have it come back to me three times worse,
and just one more thing, everyone is allowed to have there own religion, its there own choice
MysticalAngel
07-01-05, 21:23
I'm not really here to debate, but I did want to say I am Christian...and a witch. Not wiccan, though. But if anyone wants to ask a question about my beliefs you can but I'm not debating. :)
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